"...I see surveying as meeting all the elements with one possible exception..."
Is that one exception where most surveyors don't meet the minimum?
The real question is, can someone become a Survyor without meeting most, if not all, of those cited standards?
So this has now morphed into a degree v. non-degree post????
Larry,
If you already haven't, you might want to first consult with the PSAN coordinators and run this topic by them first if you intend to mention the three surveying firms by name.
Just my 0.02'
Jerry
In the broadest sense, the one normally recognized by the public, any paying job is a profession and anyone who participates is a professional. There are "Professional" organizations of almost any career you can dream of. Professional football player....professional hair dresser....professional lawn care....worlds oldest profession.... It is only the arrogant that think a college degree, etc. is required to make a profession or professional. Judges are going to have a hard time with this as there are a number of jurisdictions that require no degree to be a lawyer or a judge. In many places, a judge is an elected position in which anyone can run or be appointed.
Statute of Limitation
I think what Larry is saying is that it matters where there are not such stautes specific to surveying, but more general in nature - i.e. one statute or set of statutes covering professional liability, generally, and another covering trades, such as construction, or even more general statutes which are separate from those covering professions.
If your statute covers surveying expressly, it wouldn't matter one way or the other with regard to liability whether the courts recognized surveying as a profession. The statute would not be dependent upon the courts classifying the vocation.
The Irony!
>"A more entertaining discussion would be; why does anybody care if surveying is classified as a profession? I would venture to guess this is nothing more than an ego driven debate."
>I would suggest that Mr. P. is unknowingly baiting me with two subjects that I have a certain passion (or non-passion) for.
>And today, with the profession versus trade argument that I find childish.
>They are merely responses to the very specific post and the presumptions therein.
And of course, Mr. Baker makes no presumptions as to Mr. Phipps' motivations or reasons for this thread, nor does he display any childish behavior by allowing himself to be baited by someone who had no idea he was doing so (and therefore no intent to do so), or by subsequently offering uncalled for biting remarks in response to an imagined offense.
Nah. Didn't happen. 😉
Gee thanks Angelo...I think
I'd be offended, but anytime I am included alongside Kent McM I kind of look upon that as an honor of sorts. 🙂
We have debated this "profession" question for years now and to me it really boils down to this: You are what you are. To me there are three fundamental criteria. The first two are commonly cited in these threads, the third sadly less so.
1. You conduct yourself and your business in a professional manner.
2. You strive to act always in an ethical manner in your professional dealings.
3. You recognize your duty to the public interest (and the trust placed in you by virtue of your professional licensure) and always strive to protect the the publics interest in your professional activities.
Of course we can throw in many more things, but to me these three lay at the core to whether or not you are practicing a profession or just engaging in a trade. It is possible to make money doing either one and there are certainly many people who fall into either category. It really is a personal choice that we all have to make, whether we are conscious of doing so or not.
It has generally been my experience that how people regard you is directly related to how you conduct yourself and your business. It's not a matter of whether or not you get your boots muddy. If you act like their equal, people in other professions will ten to regard you as an equal. If you act as if you somehow belong to a lesser station in life, this is how other professionals will regard you. Much of this inferiority complex is in our own minds. The unfortunate thing is that if all too often bleeds over into our fees as well.
Naw, it ain't no profession. It is sort of like killing wild hogs. You see it done, and you watch a little bit, and then you try it yourself, and you like it, and then you go get a ticket, so you can do more of it, and then you try to tell the world that you is perfeshunal!
(hick, burp.... BELCH!)
Say, Larry, have you ever seen that kind of work?
I have!
N
> Am doing some research for a class at the Nebraska Convention next February.
>
> Found an interesting case where the Nebraska Court noted that the defined of profession is:
>
> a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation, including instruction in skills and methods as well as in the scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods, maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct, and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of a public service
>
This is a very good description of a profession. Yes, by this description Land Surveying is a profession.
a calling Yes land surveying is a calling, is anyone doing this for the money???
requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation Yes how long does it take us to get registered? And how long until we really know what we're doing?
including instruction in skills and methods as well as in scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods... Yes the science of measurement which is quite extensive; history? yes the deeds and knowledge of previous surveys, land occupation, etc.; skills, the field skills necessary to do the job, how long does this take to master?
maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct Doesn't every survey organization maintain standards of practice?
and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of public service What survey organization doesn't have or require continuing education? and yes, we perform a public service.
Actually as far as professions go Land Surveying ranks with the highest of professions right up there with Attorneys, doctors and such.
For those who think it doesn't matter...shame on you.
Gee thanks Angelo...I think
:good: good post bob,
:good:
I heard a simpler explanation on why surveyors are professionals. It was state by a very well-known lawyer/surveyor in our state but probably not known around the country that well. He has taught boundary law for surveyors and is quite well respected around here. I may not have the qoute exactly right be he said something to the efffect:
The land surveyor must provide answers to questions that have no (definite) answer. That is why he is a professional.
Something likt that anyway.
Tom
It is a profession if a tuxedo is worn however if you wear a torn iron maiden shirt then it is just a job.
The important part is that the court is recognizing (as others have) that it is the service provided that will be looked at. Even in States where Surveyors have in general been recognized with Professional status, each service provided may not fall under the Professional umbrella.
The court correctly places the burden of protecting an entire class of workers from liability in certain circumstances on the legislature. It's interesting that Texas has done that (according to this thread). Must have a strong association down there.
I wonder if a statue like the claimed Texas one is even constitutional though. I can just envision performing some fairly mundane tasks as a Surveyor, and charging for them, but that really any of my technicians could perform without supervision.
