I'm no longer licensed ... so am I a nobody?

RUN to the nearest exit!

or just RUN.

RUN as fast as you can and don't look back.

RETIRED69, post: 328072, member: 1248 wrote: He's even got a couple corners where he wants me to indicate pins found, where no pins were found and not set(he told me this).

This is the deal breaker. Up to then, he's just hard to work with and up to you whether it's worth it. But at the point he says that, I'd tell him I wouldn't do it and if I find out he does it anyway, I'll go to the board. Even an untrained private citizen can report this kind of stuff - you don't need your license.

RETIRED69, post: 328072, member: 1248 wrote: Does anyone think that my contacting the parties to this project(this surveyor actually put me in direct contact with all the parties to discuss the mapping and preliminary review), would be wrong, to inform them that the maps might be copywrited and subject to my interests..

First you have to have a very frank talk with the surveyor. And it might also be appropriate to ask for payment on delivery, or, failing that, some sort of security to hold.

Aside from a custom title block or font, nothing on an ALTA survey is subject to copyright. An ALTA depicts facts on the ground, and facts aren't copyrightable. I learned this the hard way some years back when I saw some improvement plans drawn over my ALTA for which I never got paid. I looked into suing for copyright infringement and discovered that there wasn't any.

the survey is not an ALTA until the surveyor presents it as such(I've never released a final map with no disclosure of it's preliminary value), plus I don't believe that an ALTA survey is not copywrite material simply because a second party may have abused a first party's copywrite. In other words if the map is copywrite eligible, I don't believe a "third", party can invalidate the copywrite of the first party...the issue of performance could come up , I suppose, if the deliverables are otherwise subject to copywrite and the surveyor didn't disclose it.

I mean ... think about it, do you seriously believe that a third party can extinguish a valid copywrite of a first party through a second party?

That would reward a copywrite breaker

RETIRED69, post: 328092, member: 1248 wrote: I don't believe that an ALTA survey is not copywrite material

Believe what you want, John, but I suggest you read up on copyright law. Aside from stylistic elements, an ALTA survey map is a presentation of fact, not an original work susceptible to copyright protection.

First off, my map is not fact and is subject to many issues regarding many things ... second, I can not certify the map as undeniable facts, something you no doubt did when you certified your map ... you certified that your map was nothing more than facts. Besides, many attorneys over reach in their viewpoints and others under reach in their viewpoints... I gather no judge made a ruling on your issue about copywrite and I suppose another, more aggressive attorney might have felt differently.

The other thing is if what I have is my rendition of what may exist(no firsthand knowledge ... never stepped on the property ... plus knowledge that the map is in fact(according to the surveyor), incorrect(that is items that are not what they are portrayed, means that at least some data is nothing more than my interpretation, from my own way of looking at things ... seeing things ... like a Picasso ... of how I perceive things ... you may see things different ...that is your facts might not be my facts.

But, all this is beside the point. My issue is what I might be able to do to keep a surveyor from using my map. If he wants to present his facts, as he sees them, that's his business, and he has the legal power to present his findings, in a map form ... as indisputable facts and nothing but facts.

What I said and still say, is that if the map/rendition or piece of artwork that I made is eligible for copywrite, then I very seriously doubt that requirements of a third-party's needs supercedes the legal right of the first party, through the second party actions.

I wonder how many attorneys that lady(way back when), talked to before she got one to agree to suing McDonald's for hot coffee?

The reason there's almost always two opposing attorneys in court, is because, with the respective knowledge that each has, each feels they have a "winning", case.

As I said, you may have talked to your attorney, you may have gotten his opinion ... but you didn't test your possible rights in court ...

Oh BTW, are you saying that specifically, ALTA surveys are a presentation of fact, or are you saying ALL surveys are nothing more than presentation of fact?

RETIRED69, post: 328099, member: 1248 wrote: Oh BTW, are you saying that specifically, ALTA surveys are a presentation of fact, or are you saying ALL surveys are nothing more than presentation of fact?

The only significant exception that I found in the course of my research was subdivision design -- the actual layout of lots is copyrightable. But boundary and topographic surveys aren't.

And no, I didn't test this in court. The cost of litigating anything like this isn't worth it until the potential damage award is in excess of $50k or so. Anything below that is going to be a wash at best, and more likely a heavy loss played out over the course of several years. I've licked my wounds and moved on.

Defineately a smart thing to do ... I would have done it too.

But the slightest specific argument that may or may not result in a successful courtcase might mean the difference between this person getting freebie work or having to "personally", establish the facts(or non-facts), as I have presented them.

I know there has been of past much discussion about copyright(finally spelled it right, but the discussions always revolved around a person gathering the facts(or directly controlling the employees that gather the facts) and making a factual certification of "his/her", facts.

I am no longer to present/certify data in survey form as fact. As I see it, it's all nothing but artform to me with no factual knowledge of what's actually there. First off, this is no way to run a business ... let me run down what was located by the surveyor and what I derived, on my own(with no license, I'm nothing more than the village idiot looking at "stuff"), from various sources from my standpoint it's ALL nothing but "artful interpretation".

5 acres, 8-sided 4 pins found 6 pins marked as found & 4 pins set(maybe)
5 buildings 1-9(2 buildings fell down the hill)of between 4400 & 6100 sf 130 parking places

located by the surveyor:
4 pins found
2 pins said to be found, but not found
11 bldg corners(for all 7 buildings)
1 hydrant
2 gas valves
9 utility poles
1 fenced cellular tower

determined by me(very subjective):
130 parking spaces
all curbs
all pavements
all storm manholes
all storm headwalls
all walls
all buildings alignments(no enough corners)
all porches
all buried utilities
4 utility poles
roadside ditches
all fences
all enclosed fences(other than cell tower)
monitoring well
all dirt and asphalted roadways
all walkways

I strongly urged this guy to go back on site, with this map and review the map, and take pictures too ... no go

I think a reasonable person might say the vast majority of data on this map is not really "factual" ... defineately not accurately located.

So given the absolute volumes of data I had to attempt to decifer from various sources, along with the PS's lack of initiative to locate things, and a willingness to show things that are not so and what appears to be a backstabbing in the making of renumerating me for all this subjective work that I did(since he wouldn't), and his constant feigning of "no money". I'm very interested in making my own statement, per se' that a shove begets a push.

My interest doesn't really lie in a copyright, even though I do think this isn't your normal surveyor's facts on paper issue. My interest lies in punishment... sorry to say ... simple punishment, for the lack of a quality project on PS's part and the pressure placed on me to attempt to alleviate the PS's lack of due dilligence.

I'm very much piesuist ... very much ... I don't think, in 35-40 years that I have ever been so PEISUISTE.

RETIRED69, post: 328104, member: 1248 wrote: My interest lies in punishment.

I understand your position well, being the beneficiary of a $5k judgment that I've been unable to collect for almost 10 years now. But rather than pursuing copyright infringement, I think you'd be much more likely to prevail in a small claims case based upon fair compensation for work performed under a contract (written or otherwise). It shouldn't be too hard to convince a judge that you've put a certain level of effort into a work product requested by your client, and that he hasn't honored his obligations under the contract. Going after that wouldn't cost you much, and I can say from personal experience that there's a lot of satisfaction to be had in simply getting the judgment. Collecting is another matter, but your case probably isn't as unfavorable as mine (the guy never intended to pay, and holds no assets in his own name).

the threat of the copyright is only the tool that hope to use ... doesn't need to factual, doesn't need to be ajudicated, just nee to be enough potential threat to make this guy do his own work or at least having to pay this other drafter to redo this project. I'm very peiasuted ...

anything that might help make a case about copyright will make it up the channels(title attorneys or whathave you for their assessment) and if the threat bomb is dropped at the surveyor's feet, it would be hoped that this PS learns that he/she is the surveyor, that my services are being overused(and abused), and the price to pay is basically ... do your own work ... especially if you plan to screw me.

The issue with the assignees is because this PS put me in direct contact(one one on one as the non-contracted drafter), with ALL of the different parties(PS didn't want the complication), each individually and the issue to them would not be about their abuse of copyright, but the PS's potential abuse of copyright which might cause a domino effect.

PS doesn't realize what I know( he doesn't know how to use a computer and just can't understand that I can get the county records of surveys) about PS activity regarding me for the past 3-4 months and that while PS got a new drafter(which I don't mind at all), but PS continued stringing me along to get projects I have started, out of the way ... I'd rather be sailing anyway ... not working on this stuff. I wish he had gotten this other drafter a long time ago and that he would've told, so I could bow out without this sticky spiderweb.

I cannot stand people who actually want to screw someone else over, to the point of stringing them along to screw them even more.

Regarding copyrights on maps, we had an attorney do some research on this matter when our local MLS asked brokers to scan surveys and send them in for inclusion in a database at the MLS. His research indicated that our maps could, indeed, be copyrighted and I have done so since.
His research is here...
Dropbox File (Private or Invalid)

;">Westlaw docs

JB, post: 328109, member: 346 wrote: Regarding copyrights on maps, we had an attorney do some research on this matter when our local MLS asked brokers to scan surveys and send them in for inclusion in a database at the MLS. His research indicated that our maps could, indeed, be copyrighted and I have done so since.
His research is here...
Dropbox File (Private or Invalid)

;">Westlaw docs

I'll defer to the lawyers, and also say that it would probably make more sense to look into pressing a claim against a large ongoing copying operation than it would against a one-off violation. Note that you don't have to do anything to obtain the copyright to your work, though actually registering a particular work will confer greater protection. To me, the cost and hassle of registering isn't worth it under ordinary circumstances.