Today was a pretty simple survey. It involved just a portion of a line for a new party wall
to be placed. The lot was in the end of a cul-de-sac.
Let's start with some pictures first..
Tract Map No 4523
The line surveyed is between lot 11 and 12 on Campus Drive. We found the undisturbed original tract corner as it is noted on the above map. The pipe was below the back of
walk grade 0.6'. The street needed to be filled, which preserved the pipe, to drain to
the south. North is up picture.
Original Tract Ties
We found and documented ten of the ramsets noted on these ties. We also found the original
spike and tin 0.3' below the existing asphalt surface. The ramset shown as the centerline produced was of course held with the spike for centerline. South of the spike were (4) punches in a SMH rim that were noted on city ties. The spike, the punch intersection, the ramset all lined up at 180°, the offset to the ramset e'ly of the spike is, for all practical purposes, 90° and at tie distance away from the spike. So I have three original monuments, doesn't get much better than that for a one line survey.
However...the 50 foot cul-de-sac radius is not 50 feet from the pipe. It's 49.98' and, frankly, I really don't give a damn and I'll probably get noted about that when the Orange CS office sees this Corner Record.
Link to the CR
http://freepdfhosting.com/55fb7ca8b9.pdf
I guess I just "forgot" how to "analyze a survey" and fudge that 0.02' and make that pipe fit the math. I know that ramsets are the worst thing you can use for setting ties, but it is what it is.
BTW..I tossed out that County Surveyor spike/tin because there was no evidence at all that they (the crew) bothered to uncover the pipe and the spike and tin that was 0.3' below the asphalt, plus it misses the ramsets. That should toss fuel into the fire.
Couple of Questions, Checker will probably pick up on these also.
1. Where are M-8 and M-16
2. Where/what is the common west corner of lots 11/12?
Otherwise, looks good.:-)
SoCal is amazing.
You've got more monuments in this one little piece of heaven than all of Downtown Sacramento.
Heck even Weott (Humboldt County) has more monuments per square foot than downtown Sacramento, but not nearly this density of monuments.
I'll probably get a note placed on this CR - Thanks Stephen
> Couple of Questions, Checker will probably pick up on these also.
>
> 1. Where are M-8 and M-16
M-8, umm, I mis numbered so I will fix that
M-16 is at Campus/Stonybrook..I need to add that
> 2. Where/what is the common west corner of lots 11/12?
Ohh..somwhere back there, but I am pretty sure any originals are gone, three walls intersect at that position. The owner was not interested with that corner being set. The new wall will be placed east of the existing wall to just before the pipe.
I'll probably get a note placed on this CR - Thanks Stephen
> > > > 2. Where/what is the common west corner of lots 11/12?
>
> Ohh..somwhere back there, but I am pretty sure any originals are gone, three walls intersect at that position. The owner was not interested with that corner being set. The new wall will be placed east of the existing wall to just before the pipe.
Stephen is right the OCS will ask, did you search for the NW corner of Lot 11? Did you search for any corners along the back line of the lots, so you can proportion the missing NW corner? They may put it through without a note, but they may also put one that there may be an alternate location of the lot line because you did not search for the original NW corner of Lot 11 monument.
Being the devil's advocate, what if the original lot corner is existing and is 0.5' over from the wall intersection, making the bearing of the PL different? What if there is a nail & tag in the top of wall instead of the IP called for the tract map and a cert of correction filed that changes the monument descriptions? I have seen that many times in OC and one time the county found the CoC for me after I called the N & T points no ref monuments.
I'm not picking this apart, I'm just making you aware of questions you may get about this. I'm not sure how familiar you are with working in OC.
I'll probably get a note placed on this CR - Ryan
Ryan.. I could care less what anyone notes on that CR. It's about time that the CS and checkers get off their high horse and realize that I am the responsible party for my surveys, not them.
Ya know its funny that the term 'proportion' would even come up.
Ryan
> ....the OCS will ask, did you search for the NW corner of Lot 11? Did you search for any corners along the back line of the lots, so you can proportion the missing NW corner? They may put it through without a note, but they may also put one that there may be an alternate location of the lot line because you did not search for the original NW corner of Lot 11 monument.
Ryan, all of the above are professional questions and are over and beyond the technical check that state law provides for. They should not be asked no matter how valid the question may be.
Orange CS can stay within the state statutes and not go one step past that. Until someone proves my opinion is in error then my decision on how I have done this survey is completely valid.
My experience with OCS is very limited. The one thing I like about OCS is the no cost for filing an RS, but if they have an office full of anal nannys, then I will just stay out of OC all together.
Question about CA
I have followed Paul's projects and find them quite interesting, yet noticed one particular characteristic that seems to be unique to CA, or at least so compared to Florida: Centerline monumentation with numerous monumented reference points, even along high density traffic areas. Is it because CA is a recording state that Centerline ties are prevalent? Aside from general surveying, I would think Earthquakes would have something to do with this practice.
Although it is not uncommon here in Florida, Centerline monumentation (PCP's - Permanent Control Point) normally exist as a result of a platted subdivision and are less likely to exist in older subdivisions. Also, there rarely is any kind of secondary reference ties (if you don't count lot corners).
In an ideal world, recorded Centerline references would be wonderful in Florida!
Question about CA
reference ties are a Southern California custom.
You rarely see that in Northern California.
It has only been in recent years that the County of Sacramento has been setting reference ties in the curb but generally when they know the monument will get destroyed by a project so they put the tie in so the monument can be replaced later. You never see subdivisions with centerline points referenced like that up here except that the rumor is Spink (did 90% of the subdivision in Sacramento County in the 1940s and 1950s) tied out the pipes they set at the centerline P.I.s but that information was kept by them on a copy of the Plat; it wasn't made public record in the form Paul often posts.
The City of Sacramento had a card file with thousands of cut crosses for swing-ties on the street corners mostly downtown. Most of those got destroyed by curb ramps so we are left with splitting curbs downtown.
L.A. is just generally more advanced. They have 1911 subdivisions (they call them Tracts) where the lots actually close mathematically. You don't see that up here until the 1940s unless the Lots are perfectly rectangular. Down there Tracts are simply numbered; up here they are called subdivisions and are named.
Question about CA
>Is it because CA is a recording state that Centerline ties are prevalent?
No. The recording act came after the CL monumentation programs that Los Angeles , Orange and Ventura County had started. The City of Los Angeles started their program prior to 1900. I have spent most of my surveying life in LA County and will most likely continue to do so.
Question about CA
I think Spink is now Stantec and I don't know what happened to all of Spink's old field notes and other information.
It is common in Northern California to use an open circle for a dimension point (except San Joaquin here the custom is to use an open circle for a set monument). Spink's subdivision plats have open circles at the C/L P.I.s and B.C.s and E.C.s which indicates a dimension point. Except that usually you will find an open 3/4" iron pipe at those points. The only set monuments they show are one or two 1-1/4" iron pipes with tag for most subdivisions at a few points on the subdivision boundary. I have found a few of those. They rarely show a found monuments (this is 1950s); you just have to take their word for it that they knew where the subdivision boundary was ;-).
They also gashed the curb at the lot lines produced but no note or anything about it on the plat and a lot of those are badly eroded. I found mine by staking them out but they are barely there.
Question about CA
Mendocino and Humboldt are pretty good except for the really wild parts. They had a better culture of recording their work for the most part. Timber harvesting areas seem to have better perpetuation of monuments not that there isn't problems but at least there is something to go on. Watch out in the Gold Country, some weird stuff went on although they too tend to have pretty good information. Several Gold Country counties still had County Surveyors doing private boundary surveys into the 1950s and often signing both as Surveyor and County Surveyor. I've got one at a State Forest that has some weird boundary shenanigans going on. I talked to my supervisor about how to handle it and he more or less said what I already thought so I'll get back to that sometime like this summer when we can't travel overnight.
You won't find 0.02' though. You jump up and down with joy if the mon.s are within a foot in a quarter mile 🙂
?
THE COUNTY SURVEYOR IS A LICENSED LAND SURVEYOR, JUST THE SAME AS YOU ARE. NEITHER THE COUNTY SURVEYOR NOR YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO SURVEY. YOU BOTH ARE LICENSED BECAUSE OF YOUR RESPONSIBLITIES TO THE PUBLIC. A CAREFUL READING OF THE PLS ACT INDICATES THAT THERE ARE PRESCIBED ITEMS THAT THE COUNTY SURVEYOR WILL CHECK, BUT THEY ARE NOT SPECIFICALLY LIMITED IN THEIR ABILITY TO COMMENT ON YOUR SUBMITTALS.
I'll probably get a note placed on this CR - Thanks Stephen
Ryan, they get that anal retentive over there when it is apparent everything checks within .02' or so?
The CR looks fine to me. Any checking of other originals would clearly mean a very, very minor discrepancy if any.
Bryan
So glad someone noticed how well it was all coming together. That's why I chose to use record angle from the CL and run that angle through the pipe!
CL monuments
>....... noticed one particular characteristic that seems to be unique to CA, or at least so compared to Florida: Centerline monumentation with numerous monumented reference points, even along high density traffic areas. .
Never understood this one either. I can't even think of a surveyor in these parts that is foolish enough to put monuments in the middle of the stinking road? Course, around here, the snowplows and the frost heaves would have the last word.
BTW, What's a corner record? I thought you had to record everything anyway? What's the additional paperwork for?
CL monuments
> BTW, What's a corner record?
It's something that you will never see in your area or ever have to prepare Perry.
Paul, I believe that it is a stupid tradition that you place
monument in the middle of the road. Sure when worked in horse and cart days not quite such an issue. These days with occ and safety plus insurance costs and hostile motor vehicle drivers why then does tradition still prevail? Why not if lodging a plan establish OFF carriageway monuments for recording.
As for your delta .02 foot ...just tell 'em , 'im to join the 0.04 pincushion club before the joining fee rises!
Inquiring mind needs to know!
RADU
Paul - no need for corner records
we just give every corner in NH it's own Facebook page.
Paul - no need for corner records
haha! There's an idea! Some Corners have more friends than others!
