The system is not flawed. There are statutory remedies for all the ills you describe, and they are utilized constantly. A prudent surveyor is aware of them and can assist in implementing them. Value added service.
FrancisH, post: 397341, member: 10211 wrote: Wrong, principles here are right to exact property bought, right to protect your property from intrusion and trespassing, right to fix your boundary based on tangible description that does not have any ambiguities.
That is not happening today because no surveyor wants to go against ghe tide to fix a flawed dystem.
So every deeded description in Singapore is correctly described without error? How far back do the land records date?
FrancisH, post: 397341, member: 10211 wrote: Wrong, principles here are right to exact property bought, right to protect your property from intrusion and trespassing, right to fix your boundary based on tangible description that does not have any ambiguities.
That is not happening today because no surveyor wants to go against ghe tide to fix a flawed dystem.
And how is any description "tangible" unless monuments set at the time of description held as true and relied upon by the owner and surveyor that set the monument. Whether accurately described mathematically or not.
FrancisH, post: 397341, member: 10211 wrote: Wrong, principles here are right to exact property bought, right to protect your property from intrusion and trespassing, right to fix your boundary based on tangible description that does not have any ambiguities.
That is not happening today because no surveyor wants to go against ghe tide to fix a flawed dystem.
No description is "tangible" without monumentation.
Ron Lang, post: 397345, member: 6445 wrote: No description is "tangible" without monumentation.
And if monumentation is every changing then what do you have. Nothing that resembles the nature of surveying.
Deuteronomy 27:17
'Cursed is he who moves his neighbor's boundary mark.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen
A prudent surveyor is aware of them and can assist in implementing them. Value added service
Sorry? How can you assist when you yourself say any found monument is correctly placed there by someone that you not sure if he was a surveyor. How can you assist if you won't admit that something is wrong with the boundaries.
No description is "tangible" without monumentation.
So you want to go with the chicken and egg routine now?
And if monumentation is every changing then what do you have. Nothing that resembles the nature of surveying.
Which is why you fix everything once and for all.
If a monument is out of line with deed, you either fix the monument or the deed. You make deed conform to monument or monument conform to deed.
Once you make that transition then future surveys will find that monuments now conform to deeds. And any missing monument will be relocated based on deed. Which is what original survey intended since they also made a plat of the survey after monumentation.
FrancisH, post: 397348, member: 10211 wrote: So you want to go with the chicken and egg routine now?
The egg came first.
'Cursed is he who moves his neighbor's boundary mark.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen
So you now want to add references from the Old Testament to your surveying manual ? Really?
But you are forgetting, the surveyor is not a neighbor to the 2 adjoining lot owners.
FrancisH, post: 397347, member: 10211 wrote: Sorry? How can you assist when you yourself say any found monument is correctly placed there by someone that you not sure if he was a surveyor. How can you assist if you won't admit that something is wrong with the boundaries.
No one has said that every monument is or has been correctly placed. And most US surveyors surveying in their respective areas can tell the difference between original monumentation and erroneous monumentation and everything in between.
That is why it takes more than 1 year of experience in the US to sit for the exams necessary to become a professional surveyor.
Anyone can measure dimensions nowadays, it takes a professional to decifer between the dimensons and the law. Which apparently is lacking in some of the world.
When the government doesn't control ever aspect of life there is sometimes a gray area where the learned come together and find a solution that the civilized recognize.
Ron Lang, post: 397354, member: 6445 wrote: No one has said that every monument is or has been correctly placed. And most US surveyors surveying in their respective areas can tell the difference between original monumentation and erroneous monumentation and everything in between.
That is why it takes more than 1 year of experience in the US to sit for the exams necessary to become a professional surveyor.
Anyone can measure dimensions nowadays, it takes a professional to decifer between the dimensons and the law. Which apparently is lacking in some of the world.
When the government doesn't control ever aspect of life there is sometimes a gray area where the learned come together and find a solution that the civilized recognize.
But hell im just an ignorant American!!!
That is why it takes more than 1 year of experience in the US to sit for the exams necessary to become a professional surveyor.
Really? you need 1 year to determine if a monument is out of position?
FrancisH, post: 397357, member: 10211 wrote: Really? you need 1 year to determine if a monument is out of position?
Maybe the monument is in position and the other monument is out of position. Sooner or later you have to hold something.
Francis,
I'll ask this of you again.
Why are you so argumentative and contrarian? What is your end game in all of this?
It is instructive - especially the quality and substance of the responses to your Socratic needling manner.
It would be useful for you to back down and give due credit for what this thread has unveiled.
What then? 2 different lines are monumented and there's a no man's land between?
Which is why the monuments OR deeds should have been corrected before the subdivision was done.
FrancisH, post: 397357, member: 10211 wrote: Really? you need 1 year to determine if a monument is out of position?
Why hell yes, I started surveying at 16 years old....I didn't know what I was doing but cutting lines in the woods for the first year.
But in Singapore after that you can apply for licensing.
Bottom line is if it works for you and yours great!!! But judgement of our system based on your lack of knowledge is disgraceful. A true professional seeks knowledge.
Why are you so argumentative and contrarian? What is your end game in all of this?
This is a discussion warren, no one has to win or lose. You present your arguments and so shall I.
I have presented my arguments why your system fails lot ownership.
Your only countering argument is becase of laws passed down in 1800s that no one has even thought of to challenge.
FrancisH, post: 397357, member: 10211 wrote: Really? you need 1 year to determine if a monument is out of position?
One year is just enough time for someone to begin to think they are an expert at making measurements. It requires many years of experience to realize that measurements alone are not the answer to maintaining stable boundaries and a peaceful and prosperous society. Singapore requires one year of experience under a licensee. Here it's closer to eight. Yours is a rookie measurement expert outlook. I'm sorry but what you are proposing would lead to endless boundary contention and endless litigation. If anything you are demonstrating something I highly frown upon sometimes referred to as 'slapping math on the ground' without evaluating ALL of the evidence. Our job is to seek out all of that evidence of which measurements are only a part of the whole picture. You don't appear to get that and likely never will. I'm sorry.
FrancisH, post: 397366, member: 10211 wrote: This is a discussion warren, no one has to win or lose. You present your arguments and so shall I.
I have presented my arguments why your system fails lot ownership.
Your only countering argument is becase of laws passed down in 1800s that no one has even thought of to challenge.
Hey if you believe that digital reading is telling you truths without the full understanding of errors more power to you. put your name on it, stand by it, and face your Government with it.
