If a couple is married in a state that does and then buys land in PA, the US Constitution says PA must recognize it.
I do not intend to write such a deed but I must be able to understand the meaning when I read such a deed.
I have surveyed homes owned by same sex couples and the language was explanatory. My question was just in wondering if a same sex state had created language that was unique to such a situation and easily abbreviated as in H/H or W/W?
Paul in PA
if a married couple: John Harold Smith and William Jones Hanks, a married couple
if an unmarried couple: Jane Susan Jones and Alice Jean Wilson, with rights of survivorship
This seems too simple to be a bit confused... what is it you are trying to do?
what is the normal verbiage in your local for married and non married couples/partnerships?
> If a couple is married in a state that does and then buys land in PA, the US Constitution says PA must recognize it.
>
> I do not intend to write such a deed but I must be able to understand the meaning when I read such a deed.
>
> I have surveyed homes owned by same sex couples and the language was explanatory. My question was just in wondering if a same sex state had created language that was unique to such a situation and easily abbreviated as in H/H or W/W?
>
> Paul in PA
While I don't write deeds as it is out of the scope of my work, if I could and a married gay couple asked me, I would. Would you if you could, or not because you don't agree with it.
Fwiw, it's not a life for me or what I hope for my kids, but I'm tolerant of others lifestyles.
I can neither write a deed or judge others.
I simply write the narrative that is incorporated into the deed.
Rick
Wendell, could you please make up one of those little 'face in palm' smilie thingys for us?
Thanks,
Ed
ho·li·er-than-thou adj.
Exhibiting an attitude of superior virtue; self-righteously pious.
"I do not intend to write such a deed but I must be able to understand the meaning when I read such a deed."
What? Seriously, why? I am a surveyor, I read the description of the property boundary. I am not qualified to determine the complexities of ownership...
Second Trolling Post This Weekend.
Why would a land surveyor get involved in this aspect of the deed?
Write the description, hand it over to the attorney, let HIM OR HER worry about the names.
Best case scenario................give it to a gay attorney.
Second Trolling Post This Weekend.
> Best case scenario................give it to a gay attorney.
Zing! LOL.
Take it to the extreme
If there are suspicions on gender issues, will surveyors have to inspect to see if there were any gender altering procedures performed?
I think that they may do that in certain parts of Kansas at this time but that would make me hang up the ole plumb bob.
Totally ludicrous.
I agree with the others here. Write and read the deed and stay out of people's lives as much as possible pertain to the legal transaction.
Excuse Me For Being Concerned With The Grantor/Grantee
I apologize to all the Surveyors? who never concern themselves with the Grantor/Grantee names but can sniff out Junior/Senior rights by the smell of the ink. Somehow I was never granted that Godlike touch.
I have no axe to ground with same sex couples, but was merely inquiring if the states that allow the creation of same sex family units has fully empowered them to have all the traditional marital rights.
When engaged to survey a parcel owned by George Smith it is good to know that same parcel granted by Kalvin Klyne to John Homme and Maria Homme, H/W in 1962 is the same as that parcel granted by Mary (Homme) Body and Julia Body, W/W in 2010 to said George Smith. If I perceived there was some defect in the deed language and failed to so inform my client I could open myself to tortious claims whether I was a lawyer or not. Had that parcel been sold in 2000 the grantor might have been Mary Homme, Widow and in 2020 it might be sold by Julia Body, Survivor to Mary
(Homme) Body in Joint Tenancy or whatever the state law has decided.
One cannot use H/H because no law that I am aware of decribes both male partners as Husbands nor both female partners as wives. However one might use H/H to indicate homo and homo, "homo" being the Latin for man. For women the most common latin word is mulier which abbreviated as "M" can be confused with masculine. F/F for feminine and feminine can easily be consider female and female. W/W works for women and women instead of wife and wife.
I really don't need the insults from certain posters, if you don't know an answer to my question just do not respond , or if you are compelled to respond say "I don't know" or I could imply your answer was "I am an idiot and do not know".
Paul in PA
Excuse Me For Being Concerned With The Grantor/Grantee
I will look at the last deed description and also look at the first creation of the tract of interest to see if there is harmony in the descriptions, often there is not.
When disharmony is found I go through the deed records to determine which document made the change, obtain a copy for my records and will usually use the first description to survey the land. The Narrative will contain the reason why and the deed filing data will be included. I have occasionally followed the names in a chain of title, but something triggered it, it is not the norm. Those things are within the interest of lending and title agencies while my interest is only the proper location and accurate descriptions in harmony with the adjoiners. The reason I don't depend on title agencies to do my research is that we are both looking for different data with
in the documents. Legal status of the previous owners usually not of interest to me. Searching out the Junior Senior rights are usually determined by the timing and the way the descriptions and conditions if any are written within the various deeds. Writing those description needs to be given careful thought about how the wording may or may not effect the owners of the lands. You can write descriptions that pass Senior rights to a buyer or write the description in a manor to retain the Senior rights with the seller. Be aware of the influence of how a description is written effects ownership, it is not just the remainder of the deed document and its language that controls some rights.
jud
Excuse Me
> I apologize to all the Surveyors? who never concern themselves with the Grantor/Grantee names but can sniff out Junior/Senior rights by the smell of the ink. Somehow I was never granted that Godlike touch.
> ...
> When engaged to survey a parcel owned by George Smith it is good to know that same parcel granted by Kalvin Klyne to John Homme and Maria Homme, H/W in 1962 is the same as that parcel granted by Mary (Homme) Body and Julia Body, W/W in 2010 to said George Smith.
> Paul in PA
I would think that this would be rather 'light lifting' for any surveyor to determine.
In Louisiana being under the civil code of law, if the scenario ever developed it would be explicitly spelled out by the public notary.
But then as you mention, one would have to examine any particular state's law.
For example, in civil descriptions that I read, the term husband and wife is not used.
It usually states that John Deaux was married to so and so
or once married to so and so and now married and living with so and so.
A term 'single man or woman who has never married' is commonly used.
The only specific term dealing with marital status that I can think of is the term 'widow' and 'widower' is used to describe the grantor or grantee.
Jane Deaux, widower, of Jean Deaux.
But if you want to develop specific language for such, then carry on.
I do not see the confusion you are trying to imply.
Baloney
Grantor/Grantee names would be treated the same, be they married couples, domestic partnerships, business partnerships or corporations. Names are names.......they are recorded as filed by the attorneys.
Like I said elsewhere, give it to a gay lawyer........he or she will sort it all out for you.
Paul
That is a fair assessment and question you pose. However, without the explanation, the first post you made seemed a little "homophobic" or "judging". To that end, I retract any ill will statement I may or may not have made and wish you the best of luck in trying to find the answer.
You could just spell out the names of everyone on the deed and not worry about marital status.
Gay Lawyer Has Nothing To Do With It
Knowledge of the lawyer is not based on sexual preference.
The use of Husband and Wife adds much to the Grantor/Grantee distinction with limited words and oft times is all that conveys certain rights. Absent that, same sex couples could require rather laborious language to convey the same rights which can be done without any same sex marriage law.
I was just questioning whether any state had fully considered the ramifications of same sex marriage well beyond same sex divorce.
Paul in PA
I Believe Peter E Answered the Question.......
.......way back at the top of the thread.
But LPL's last two posts:
".......but was merely inquiring if the states that allow the creation of same sex family units has fully empowered them to have all the traditional marital rights."
"I was just questioning whether any state had fully considered the ramifications of same sex marriage well beyond same sex divorce."
......indicate to me that this IS a political thread.
Politics Has Nothing To Do With Language Of Property Rights
Angelo, you have added absolutely nothing to the answer, yet drag a simple question on deed language into another arena.
Paul in PA
Gay Lawyer Has Nothing To Do With It
Okay, what rights are you referring to?
"I have no axe to ground with same sex couples, but was merely inquiring if the states that allow the creation of same sex family units has fully empowered them to have all the traditional marital rights. "
What is the legal effect of H/W in your jurisdiction? Apparently it has some significance where you are that it does not have anywhere else in the country, or the rest of us simply don't know about it. So enlighten us.
H/W = Husband And Wife, As I understand It
Husband and Wife => "Tenancy by the entirety with right of survivorship", only between husband and wife .
It is "Joint Tenancy" modified by the common law theory that husband and wife are one person.
Neither party can alienate or encumber the property without consent of the other.
Divorce converts it to tenancy in common.
"H/W" is all one may ever see in a PA or NJ deed. Very powerful.
Often you may see "John Smith and Jane Smith, his wife" for the same effect.
Paul in PA
