From Lanier Mathews.
By now, most of you have seen the Email Bulletin sent out at 4:40 this afternoon. It was sent when we received notice that a Proposed Committee Substitute (PCS) Bill was placed on the agenda for this Thursday's meeting of the Economic Affairs Committee. At the time the bulletin was sent, the PCS was not available for review. Since then FSMS lobbyist, David Daniel obtained a copy of the replacement bill language. What is clearly NOT included in the new language is Professional Surveying and Mapping. THAT IS CORRECT, THE SURVEYING AND MAPPING PROFESSION HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR HB 5005! NO MENTION OF CH 472, CH 177 OR ANY OTHER RELATED STATUTES THAT WERE LISTED FOR REVISION IN THE ORIGINAL BILL.
See? And that's exactly why I didn't even entertain the idea of going to Tally. We (surveyors) are gonna be ok. We're like Masons...we have ancient knowledge. Heh
I'll feel much better when they publish the PCS and vote on the dang thing!
Except that section C of the elevation certicate is required to be signed by a licensed surveyor, engineer, or acrhitect ... will the law be changed on the federal level to allow "surveyors" in Florida (a.k.a "just anyone") to sign these documents, or, after June 2011, is FEMA going to demand that only engineers and architects sign them in Florida??? This is the kind of practical point the legislatures will take note of.
> See? And that's exactly why I didn't even entertain the idea of going to Tally. We (surveyors) are gonna be ok. We're like Masons...we have ancient knowledge. Heh
I gotta tell ya I admire the he11 out of AJ and others and the way they were prepared to sacrifice and take personal action, I think their plan was the right one.
If it was in my state you could not have held me back, I promise you that.
Well (in case you haven't seen) we are off the bill. So this is purely hypothetical now, but in that instance I don't think "elevation certs" would exist. I think they (FEMA) would already have the ground info and you could literally just pull a tape on the building and they would approve or disapprove it via email. Elevation work is getting easier everyday. I can't wait to never ever EVER read a level on a 110 degree day on a 6 mile loop again.
Here is a link to the PCS with surveying removed.
I too will rest even easier when this has passed.
Yes, I wrote that reply before I read we were off the bill ... but for what it's worth, I have no idea what you're talking about ... I think doing elevation certs "the old fashion way" will still be around after June 2011, and we're a long way from FEMA accepting measurements from the dirt around the house via email in place of elevation certificates.
I never said it wasn't admirable...just a bit reactionary. If you know how Florida works then you know when to be present and when to not be. The bill has more budget crap in it than anything so that's all Thursday's proceedings are about. Agreeing on the bottom line of the budget, not calculating the sum of it's parts. One could protest in the streets with signs and they'd say still say "sorry but this is a budget referendum...you need to contact your Representative." THAT'S when you take action. And it would have gotten amended or substituted like it already has. A LOT of people stood to lose A LOT of money in the realty/condo/timeshare world. They NEED us...Almost more than we need them. I mean, honestly...you think any real estate firm trying to sling million dollar beach houses is gonna want any old "Joe Pillhead" doing their elevation? I was concerned but I'm a realist. Thank God those guys DIDN'T drive 8+ hours and through several tolls for nothing.
June 2011 has nothing to do with anything. Just Google the GRAV-D project. They have it all figured out. Leveling truly is obsolete even now.
In fact here's something I just read...The second improvement which GRAV-D will empower is to no longer rely on unchecked passive control to provide access to heights. Rather, a GPS receiver, with a geoid model from GRAV-D, will provide immediate and accurate access to orthometric heights directly. Basically, that means benchmarks and levels are obsolete. You can get a solid ground elevation ANYWHERE and to determine the height of the building just pull a tape and do a little math. Send your results by e-mail (cause they already have data from your GPS session) and you're done. We really aren't too far away from it.
That's really not that different than what we have now. The geoid models are pretty damn good (at least in my area). This is just a better Geoid model. It still takes a level of technical expertise to run the thing, though. I also think you are mistaken a higher quality geoid model, for a DTM of the entire country. I'm not sure how you conclude that FEMA would already know the ground elevation of each building site to a standard acceptable to rate flood insurance. Further, this is not going to be completed until 2021, so there is quite a gap between then and June 2011.
But the big question is, who will FEMA allow to certify elevation certificates? You could have the best equipment and geoid model in the world, but if a homeowner or contractor is going to lie on the form to get what they want (cheaper insurance, hide a mistake, etc), it pretty much makes the geoid model useless.
Anyone that's ever worked in construction probably knows how to read a level. It's not the point the equipment or "the system" is easy to use/follow. The point of having licensed individuals sign these forms, in addition to the obvious technical and professional know-how, is that we're seen to be unbiased reporters of the facts, and we can be held accountable for our errors. I don't see that going away any time soon.
Looks like my emails did the trick. 😉
OK... Gov. Rick..."Let's Get to Work" already...the clock's been tickin'...
> ...you think any real estate firm trying to sling million dollar beach houses is gonna want any old "Joe Pillhead" doing their elevation?
If the "Pillhead" does elevations for $1.98 and the other clean guys do them for $2.01, the real estate firm is going to go $1.98 every time... There's a bean counter in that RE firm that stands to collect $0.03 bonus off every house they sell by using the "Pillhead". When something goes wrong, the RE firm's lawyers will simply point at the "Pillhead", and tell the opposition's lawyers to go after "Pillhead's" liability insurance. They'll claim they knew nothing of the art, science and profession of surveying and relied on "Pillhead" because he held himself out to have the knowledge and experience necessary to call himself a surveyor.
Some folks say a Bachelor's degree is not necessary in this profession. I'd beg to differ based on what I learned in my courses taught by instructors at the Warrington College of Business. Our daily actions in our chosen profession contain multiple pitfalls and snares placed by our litigious society. We generally fail miserably in rewarding ourselves economically for dancing around those pitfalls and snares daily, and in the end we squabble over the cost of a $75 BLM manual. I paid $85 for the college text book I bought in January, and the three credit course at a community college cost me $277.
Bean counters on the other hand have done an admirable job of rewarding themselves with beans by cutting corners we would never cut, and placing liability on others whenever possible.
The fact that surveyor's were on the list of professions to be deregulated was obviously motivated by a bean counter somewhere in Florida. That bean counter no doubt stood to collect more beans by being able to utilize any "pillhead" with GPS, a total station, or a simple box tape who claimed to have the knowledge necessary to perform our job, whether they actually had that knowledge or not.
I don't think this is the end of the attack on our profession, the bean counters will simply re-group, re-strategize, and tuck something in at the last second in their next attempt to under cut us. The bean counters are a crafty lot. How else do you explain record bonuses for bean counters whose corporations were on the brink of economic collapse such a short time ago?
