I had a call from a client who has a parcel that is in zone A, there is not much more information, community has not established a BFE. What possible avenues can a surveyor take to get the property or portion of it removed from the flood zone. Is there another option? I am wondering how to advise this client to proceed.
What does the client need?
he wants to reduce or eliminate his flood insurance...
All you can do is take all the necessary meausrements and submit to FEMA for a LOMA.
Flood study!!
> I had a call from a client who has a parcel that is in zone A, there is not much more information, community has not established a BFE. What possible avenues can a surveyor take to get the property or portion of it removed from the flood zone. Is there another option? I am wondering how to advise this client to proceed.
I run into this quite often since there are a few towns in my area that never participated in a flood study. The method I use is to call the state FEMA officer (usually at the capitol) and ask her how she'd like me to handle the form.
Luckily for me the past few projects have been located on a river where the community across the river has done a study, and I end up using the value nearest to my site.
Obviously, this is why I call the FEMA rep. She is the one who assigns the BFE, not me.
Hope this helps.
You could start by reading the FEMA documents pertaining to the service you are about to provide. There are methods (including Simplified Method) to determine BFE in Zone A.
i'd ask the client if his yard ever gets wet.
I'm pretty sure the "Simplified Methods", like contour interpolation, say they can not be used for Flood Insurance / LOMA purposes.
In addition to my earlier comments, I would also read Deral's post(above)concerning adjustments, especially if you're planning on using GPS for elevations.
Then, in addition to the State Contact, there should also be an NFIP local jurisdictional flood officer - one needs to be assigned in order to get the jurisdiction into the NFIP. He or she may have information, and may have first hand experience in observing flood conditions in the area you're working in. That's invaluable when it's going to be a close call. You'll also need this persons blessing if you're going forward with a LOMA and any portion of the property will still be in the floodplain.
Then, I'd look for newer structures (bridges) that probably had a flood study done with the plans associated for them. That information would be with your state or county DOT.
I'd do all that before I ventured into the realm of determining my own BFE.
Have you contacted your LOCAL flood plain manager? They are the people tasked by FEMA to answer such a question. The requirements may vary from locality to locality so it is imperative to deal with the LOCAL manager. Don't let anyone tell you that there is no such person - if there's a FEMA map there is a LOCAL manager.
Flood zone A...kudo's to Wendell
For this site. Excellent advice from all who participated. The one thing I would go ahead and say...unless you have ample experience in doing flood studies for the project I would hire someone who does. Learn from them on how and what to do.....and then after a few you may be able to do the same on your own. Don't practice outside of your capabilities (yeah I know you know that but anyway).
I had a similar project in Suffolk Va. I let one of the dual license fella's in our office do the calcs. FEMA will review your calcs and I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) FEMA requires the Hexras(sp) software (it's a free download from their site) to start with the review process.
If I remember, the BFE that is determined will also be sent to the local flood plain manager. As some have said, if they participate in NFIP then they do have someone there to contact.
Good luck....if ya get a chance share with us your experience on how things went.
MT-EZ application, Elevation Certificate, cross section of waterway through structure. Send to FEMA, wait 2 months.
I've done about 30.
FEMA 265 for Zone A, No BFE
Its a must read for anyone who works with zone A, no BFE:
http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=1526
Developed primarily for the community management, but is a valuable source for understanding zone A issues.
Many surveyors do not have a thorough background in hydrology and stream hydraulics to correctly provide guidance to the landowner dealing with zone A, no bfe lands.
Of particular note is the importance for a person to achieve the best available information for the base flood elevation. Unfortunately, oftentimes the best available information is really not all that good, but is simply a very rough approximation. I strongly advise any surveyor who does work in this arena, to be sure they are providing the best advice possible.
Some advise their clients to simply fill out section E on the flood cert, or they only provide a cross section and then send the cert into FEMA for a determination of the BFE. This may seem to absolve the surveyor of any risk, but is it really providing the client with the best direction. Oftentimes, no.
For example, I was involved in a project where the best available data was a theoretical hydrologic model. Based on assumed paramaters of infiltration and times of runoff concentration. FEMA used this information for their approximate zone A, but did not provide a BFE.
For those folks who took a cross section and sent it to fema for a determination of whether a structure was truly in the flood zone or not, they got a determination on the best available information. Which, of course was this approximate theorectical hydrologic model.
That model provided a theortical 100-year flood elevation based on the theoretical storm flow calcuated to be 6,000 cfs.
However, subsequently a gaging station was constructed on the stream and monitored for several years. This allowed for a empirical truthing of the data and allowed the mathmatical model to be calibrated to actual test data.
The result: the actual stream flow for a 100-year storm was actually only 600 cfs, not 6,000 cfs as had been thought.
So if you have a zone A, get an engineer who is experienced in stream flow patterns in the area to provide some input as to the best available data. You may be surprised at what you find.
I myself often do hydrologic and hydraulic calculations for zone A, no BFE. I then compare my theoretical with rainfall data from past and current storms and then compare with reported observations by the owners and or others.
I would never leave it up to some FEMA rep from a regional office without knowing what data source he/she is using. That might take me off the hook, but it may well not be providing the client with a correct determination. In the example I gave above, there were quite a number of folks who were being told their lands were in the 6000 cfs flood impact, when in reality they were no where close to it.
lots of good advice everyone..thanks!
Rambleon,
If the site is less than 5 acres or 50 lots whichever is lesser FEMA will establish a bfe for free. You just submit the loma application ($300 or so for individual lot/$800 for multiple lots) and they will process it and remove them from the flood zone in 30 days or so; providing that they should be removed. If you need the app I will send you one. Also, if memory serves me correct if the site is not a fill site the app is free and anything built before 1975 can't be a fill site.
Charlie
FEMA 265 for Zone A, No BFE
Clearcut, thanks for the input.
The Zone A's in my area are KNOWN to be based on poor data. Most of the requests I receive are from folks who are being told they are in the floodplain, but anyone with a shred of common sense could tell you they are not. Often, these homes are literally on large hills. I think FEMA recognizes their maps are flawed and the MT-EZ offers a formal common-sense approach to relieve these folks.
FEMA 265 for Zone A, No BFE
> The Zone A's in my area are KNOWN to be based on poor data. Most of the requests I receive are from folks who are being told they are in the floodplain, but anyone with a shred of common sense could tell you they are not. Often, these homes are literally on large hills. I think FEMA recognizes their maps are flawed and the MT-EZ offers a formal common-sense approach to relieve these folks.
Just be aware that if FEMA is requested for a bfe determination, they will be using the "best available data" which is not necessarily worth the paper it is written on. It often is based on a regional hydrologic model. It is NOT based on a detailed engineering study!. If it was, FEMA would not be showing this a zone A no BFE on their maps. Next time you send in to FEMA for a bfe determination, find out what they are basing their determination on. Very likely you will find there is no FIS profile.
Point being, be sure of what you're selling your client. They may be better to get the advice of a civil engineer who is experienced in hydrology and hydraulics and the NFIP. Not many civil engineers are really experienced in the NFIP. Far fewer surveyors truly understand it. You'll also find it interesting that many flood plain managers are really planners and do not understand the engineering dynamics of flood flow.
THANKS cm