Good morning all...
Recently watched a few local surveyors get turned in by disgruntled land owners that did not agree with the surveys. (Florida) While the surveys were upheld and the land owners got even more angry, one thing came to my attention. The state review board seemed to want to pay more attention to the field notes than expected. They did make comments on the surveyors drawing but most of the comments had to do with information they wanted to see on the field notes, e.g. property line calculations, sectional breakdown information. For us, most of this is done in the office and on the computer, not in the field or on the field notes. So, as I feel should be done often anyway, I am reviewing our field note taking methods. I would like to ask what everyone else does for their field notes, maybe some sample sheets showing what information you show.
We show basic information first such as job number, date, weather, crew information and positions, site address (perfect for making sure crew verifies they are at the right house ;)). We also show basic set up information and traverse data. My opinion has always been that the office should be able to reproduce the traverse from just the information in the field notes. Thoughts, opinions, advice??
Thanks guys!
Trae
> Good morning all...
>
> Recently watched a few local surveyors get turned in by disgruntled land owners that did not agree with the surveys. (Florida) While the surveys were upheld and the land owners got even more angry, one thing came to my attention. The state review board seemed to want to pay more attention to the field notes than expected. They did make comments on the surveyors drawing but most of the comments had to do with information they wanted to see on the field notes, e.g. property line calculations, sectional breakdown information. For us, most of this is done in the office and on the computer, not in the field or on the field notes. So, as I feel should be done often anyway, I am reviewing our field note taking methods. I would like to ask what everyone else does for their field notes, maybe some sample sheets showing what information you show.
>
> We show basic information first such as job number, date, weather, crew information and positions, site address (perfect for making sure crew verifies they are at the right house ;)). We also show basic set up information and traverse data. My opinion has always been that the office should be able to reproduce the traverse from just the information in the field notes. Thoughts, opinions, advice??
>
> Thanks guys!
> Trae
We do much the same, ie we write down the Project name, number, date, weather and temp, and the crew.
We decided a few years ago to use our paper field books more akin to a "field log." We describe in general terms the work we did on a given day, but the "meat and potato" field data is stored in our electronic field books, which we place in the file as part of the field data.
Since I'm in a colonial state, the criteria for field data is vastly different, I'm sure.
Most of my field notes pertain to topo information. On boundary surveys I'll enter monument descriptions if they're unusual, but often will have no hand-written notes at all. When I do make field notes, I record the client name, job number (if I have it handy), date and field crew. I stopped entering weather data decades ago; I never used it for anything. We adjust the EDM PPM setting as the day warms up/cools down, and in recent years I've been having my I-man record it in the raw data.
Our field crews record setup info (BS, FS, HI, etc) along with the avg angle after turning sets. I agree with you that you should be able to recreate the trav from field notes. Here in the office, the field notes are marked up in red pen to show any additions or corrections. In addition, they show job number, client name, date, temp and pressure, sketch, descriptions, etc.
Your Board was overstepping it's bounds. They're not there to act as a separate land court reviewing surveys. They're there to protect the public by making sure that the surveyors are not violating any standard of practice or statutes. End of story.
If the surveys are in opposition to each other, the surveyors SHOULD be taken to task for not conferring with each other to attempt to resolve the differences. If the differences still held, the resolution. Would be a matter for the court, NOT the Board.
> We show basic information first such as job number, date, weather, crew information and positions, site address (perfect for making sure crew verifies they are at the right house ;)). We also show basic set up information and traverse data....
We do pretty much all that, too.
What you didn't mention is having some specific notes regarding the character and circumstances of found monuments. In a boundary dispute Iron Rod on a point descriptor isn't going to be nearly as helpful as a field note that says Found 5/8" iron rod with yellow plastic cap inscribed "Duley Surveying". Sticks up 0.5' out of ground and has 3 different colors of old, weathered flagging tied to it. The adjoining property owner pointed it out to us and stated that it was the corner.
Also, a sketch - at least a schematic of control layout - can be invaluable.
I Would Bet...
I would bet that when he said "the surveys were upheld", the result from the Board review was actually that they found no indication of negligence or incompetence in the performance of the surveys.
I would also bet that for most who have never been involved in a board review process, that a finding of no negligence, incompetence, or violation of the codes governing the practice of surveying is seen as "upholding the survey".
Those who have reviewed cases and do it by the proper standard or review, as you know Ian, may find no violations while still not agreeing with the boundary location arrived at by the surveyor being reviewed.
Ian, I know that you know the rest of this, so I offer it to inform those who may not understand the Board's role in review of a licensee's work.
The proper level of review, for those who have not been involved, is not agreement with the results of a survey, but whether 1) the surveyor exercised the level of care expected of a competent surveyor under similar conditions or did he perform ngligently, 2) whether the surveyor displayed an appropriate level of competence in the project or not, and 3) whether or not the surveyor complied with the statutes and codes governing the practice and project. Whether or not the reviewer agrees with the results of the survey is immaterial.
For the Board to determine whether the appropriate level of care was exercised and an appropriate level of competence exhibited, nottes, calculations, correspondence, research, and almost any other part of the licensee's job file are appropriate and often necessary to review.
The courts generally presume that a licensee is at least minimally competent (the license being prima facie evidence of that), and so does not concern itself with the notes taken, calculations performed, and other technical tasks which led to the results of the survey. Unless there is evidence to effectively rebut it, they presume that those tasks were done with appropriate care and competence.
The Board's responsibility though is to ensure that its licensees are competent and practicing with adequate care. They have to review the documentation which will show whether or not the technical tasks were performed appropriately. How can they determine whether the research was done with care without having copies of it? How can they discern whether the field work was performed well without copies of the DC raw data printouts and copies of the hand written notes, if any? How can they determine whether appropriate methods of data handling were employed without documentation and/or explanation of calculations and methods applied?
A Board review may result in a hearing before an Administrative Judge, similar to court, but not court. The difference is that it is not the results of the survey and a boundary location that is the issue, it is the practice of the person who performed the survey.
> Your Board was overstepping it's bounds. They're not there to act as a separate land court reviewing surveys. They're there to protect the public by making sure that the surveyors are not violating any standard of practice or statutes. End of story.
>
> If the surveys are in opposition to each other, the surveyors SHOULD be taken to task for not conferring with each other to attempt to resolve the differences. If the differences still held, the resolution. Would be a matter for the court, NOT the Board.
Right on the money, Ian!!! Waaayyy overstepping their bounds. There is a Biiiiiigggg difference between a civil court and an administrative board. The two should never cross over.
JBS
Like most others, the title sheet of my notes includes client or project name, job number, location, date, weather conditions, names of field crew members, and instrumentation used.
The data within the notes will contain basic setup info, detailed descriptions of found and set points, sketches, and sometimes a description or narrative of special circumstances encountered, such as ornery livestock or neighbors, information learned from client, adjoiners, or others in the area, etc.
Aside from pated measurements, which get written in the field book, all measurements are in the DC raw data.
The DC Raw Data file represents much of the notes we used to write. Many surveyors only collect coordinates and do not store or retain raw data. There are several good reasons to store and retain raw data from linework automation, to blunder detection, to being able to prove your procedures to the Board. There are no good reasons to not record and retain raw data. A coordinate list is not field notes.
All good bits of advice and I appreciate it. I'm curious about this too, seeing as how several seem to be going to electronic only FB or very little being written in the FB: when / if the Board or Court asks for your 'field book' and you don't have any or very little actual information in it, are you obligated to give them the other data in your folder that was used to conduct the survey? What would fall under their definition of FB or FB data to be used and examined in a court or board review?
> All good bits of advice and I appreciate it. I'm curious about this too, seeing as how several seem to be going to electronic only FB or very little being written in the FB: when / if the Board or Court asks for your 'field book' and you don't have any or very little actual information in it, are you obligated to give them the other data in your folder that was used to conduct the survey? What would fall under their definition of FB or FB data to be used and examined in a court or board review?
As I wrote before, the electronic field book is made part of the paper field notes (in other words, I print out my .fbk file and put it in the folder). If the board asks me for my field notes, they'll get my 8 1/2 x 11 printouts as well as my 4 x 7 loose leaf sheets.
> if the Board or Court asks for your 'field book' and you don't have any or very little actual information in it, are you obligated to give them the other data in your folder that was used to conduct the survey?
I'd say that if the board isn't clever enough to ask the question properly then I wouldn't. I would, however, expect them to ask for everything, not just field books.
> All good bits of advice and I appreciate it. I'm curious about this too, seeing as how several seem to be going to electronic only FB or very little being written in the FB: when / if the Board or Court asks for your 'field book' and you don't have any or very little actual information in it, are you obligated to give them the other data in your folder that was used to conduct the survey? What would fall under their definition of FB or FB data to be used and examined in a court or board review?
Again, the Board will want to see everything you used and/or created or prepared in performing the survey:
- Field notes. Your data collector file are just as much field notes as anything you wrote in a filed book. If you only recorded coordinates and did not record raw data, some might see that as a lack of appropriate care expected of a reasonably diligent surveyor when conducting a field survey (negligence). Or if you would argue that because you use a DC that there is no need for field notes (including raw data), that might be seen as an indication of incompetence.
- Contract. Some states require a written contract by code with certain specifics. If one of the issues of a complaint is whether or not you fulfilled the services you were hired for, the contract will need to be provided. If there are no contract issues being reviewed, it may not be required. Any extra services authorizations are part of (addendums to) the contract.
- Correspondence. Many complaints arise from different expectations of what work or result was expected to be provided. Copies of correspondence, along with the contract and extra services authorizations may help to explain the source of the disagreement or indicate if there is any real grounds for a complaint in the first place. Sometimes a client is just upset because the boundary is not where they expected it to be, the surveyor refused to release a CAD file for free when providing electronic data was not in the contract, the client's geraniums got trampled and the contractor told the client that the survey crew did it, or other such nonsense. Sometimes correspondence in the file can shed light on these matters and help to move the complaint to the "dismissed" pile.
- Research. Any document or other information that you found and relied upon in making your boundary determination or in deciding what to include on your map or in reports. The reviewer will be looking at it not only to determine if you used the data appropriately, but also whether you conducted adequate research.
- Calculations. Any printouts of adjustments or other measurement data manipulation. Many calculations are now done as a part of the drafting process with no printouts involved or possible. In that case, you should provide an explanation of the methods you applied.
If you hold back on information pertaining to, required or useful for a thorough review of your work to address the issues alleged in a complaint, you need to consider the decisions carefully. On one hand, you have a right against self incrimination (you may not want to provide a copy of that email in which you told your former client to engage in an unnatural, self demeaning, and anotomically impossible act). But on the other hand, if you don't provide certain items, you may make it appear that you were less than adequately diligent or less than competent (provide your research and field notes).
In a review of your professional level of care and your competence, the lack of information provided can be seen as a lack of information obtained by you. If that info was something important to consider in the results of your survey, not providing hurts you.
I agree with Mark.
Data collector records raw data and a bare minimum code.
Written field notes contain all the other ancillary information about the monument, up or down, how far, size, all sorts of information. Where are the fences, etc. We also set bearing tree tags in forest work so the notes have bearing and distance to the tag, size of tree, etc for those.
I was using bound books but lately I have used a form I made in Excel and print on letter sized card stock which works really well. Then I scan the notes so I have an electronic copy.
I also put the HIs and THs in the notes for each set up. Sometimes I get those numbers before I need them so it helps to have notes.
I have been doing electronic data collection for twenty years or so. I got good enough at it that I could teach it, and I did so. It is an absolute competitive necessity today, and a marvelous invention.
I always have a field book handy to record my "surveyor" thoughts and observations if the data collector can't seem to fit them in. It's surprising how much does not fit into a data collector, particularly on a boundary survey.
When I'm out on the calibration test range, a field book just seems to be a better way to record my tests and the conditions. If called in to court, the opposing attorney will not be solely interested in my electronic measurements, but my procedures and my care of the traceability of my results.
As surveyors, we're luckily unlikely to face such an attorney, but it can happen and we need to be prepared for it. It's cheap insurance.
I would suggest that since every member of your field crew has a phone with a camera, that sketches and written descriptions are no longer acceptable. We require pictures of every monument found, several if there is any question. We still go by the mantra "a picture is worth a thousand words"
One thing to consider is that the members of the board are upper management surveyors who are probably out of touch with how things are done in the field. They are still living in the past and do not appear willing to embrace the current technology. For instance, they still cling to the 1/x mentality on a traverse adjustment when most of use have long ago gone to least squares adjustments. The Florida board really needs to step into this century.
As for my crews, they keep a bare minimum in the field book and everything goes into the data collector. We record set up points, and backsight points along with the HI and HT of each. And a sketch of the line work but that is about it. The data collector is configured to prompt the guy to enter things like rod size, cap type and stampings, fence types and condition, etc. We don't even keep level run notes in a field book electing instead to us a computer program. It's faster and it does all of the math checks for them. They love it. Plus, I can print out the run and a tabulation sheet as a .PDF and store it in the project folder on the computer.
Some jobs I do not use a field book at all.