Nate The Surveyor, post: 365613, member: 291 wrote: You see, those big posts are a good place to hide a few tenths.
And, farmer John, cares more about 100$, than 0.2 out in his salvaged 16" dia fencepost!.
Besides, it makes MORE work for the retracing surveyor, if it's all guesswork anyway!
Yes, if a surveyor is just GUESSING where the boundary is, I can see why he wouldn't want to give any sort of a definite opinion as to boundary location. You was locating the SOUTH side of that there 24-inch post and I was locating the NORTHEAST side!
The original post asks a simple question; how would you describe fence posts that your client wants to be their property corners?
Lamon has received some very good advice. Personally, I am not a big fan of reference corners. If you don't make it clear, at the marker, that it represents some kind of offset to the corner; it most likely will be mistaken as the corner. I would think describing the size and material of the post and the type of fence would be sufficient for any future surveyors to determine what to do. You might even want to describe the exact "dimple" you used in your location; just in case the future surveyor is one of "those" types of surveyors. I am sure that there is an acronym out there; I am just too lazy to Google right now.
Funny how a thread like this can generate 100 replies; If'n the hardest thing I have to do today is figuring out where to locate a fence post, someone called a property corner; I will be thanking my lucky stars.
That poster: RADAR, sure is a swell guy
I can see why the retracing surveyor is confused. He wants to KNOW where the previous surveyor surveyed to.
But, the client should have called the FIRST surveyor, as HE (And only he) has the "Coordinates", as it is IMPOSSIBLE to retrace with much certainty, what actually happened, in the field, on the first survey.
(This is the philosophy of the first surveyor)
My philosophy when retracing such messes, is to HOLD to the BDC of the fence post, and, often to add a rebar, in the fence row, to make a specific point. If there is any indication that the fence has been modified, or rebuilt, subsequent to the previous survey, to even add a note: "The previous surveyor, who made this fence line the property line, left no monuments, and this fence has been rebuilt a number of times, subsequent to said survey. As such, this is the best retracement that can be provided." I also call the OTHER surveyor, and ASK for their dwg file, or coordinate file. I feel it is their duty to provide such, if they left no retracement devices.
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N
douglascasementl, post: 365666, member: 11341 wrote: The original post asks a simple question; how would you describe fence posts that your client wants to be their property corners?
Lamon has received some very good advice. Personally, I am not a big fan of reference corners. If you don't make it clear, at the marker, that it represents some kind of offset to the corner; it most likely will be mistaken as the corner.
Actually, the original poster's question was: "Is it acceptable to use an existing fence post as a corner monument?" The general answer remains that fence posts make lousy boundary markers because they don't have an objectively definite position that is easily duplicated. In the case of an urban yard where the fence post in question is hiding in the shrubbery, the practical problem is that the center of the base of the post becomes something that is only theoretically locatable. In practice, it takes time and energy that would have been better spent on something else.
The obvious best practice for reference marks is to set them out of sight since they are for the benefit of the surveyors that landowners hire. Stampings like "RM" and "WC" ought to be widely understood by surveyors and maybe even some of their employees. If I were setting reference marks for a back corner of an urban lot, first preference would be a witness corner with offset stamped on it. Second choice would be two RMs, one in each adjoining yard for practical access.
OOPS
I must agree that fence corners make lousy monuments.
When locating a posts I insist upon locating the center of the post when it is upright and noting size and type of post.
A leaning post gets a 60d nail set at the base over the lean and noting 60d nail at base of "size and type of post".
Many times I have stated "corner falling in a leaning crosstie post" in a description and will add several reference or witness calls to recover that location.
I do not hesitate to drill holes for or drive monuments to fit into difficult places when possible.
It is all too familiar to return to a site and find monuments a foot or so from the position they were last recorded because of the movement caused by the construction of the new fence corner or retaining wall (another cause for raw data to be retained and kept for reference).
Then the day comes and I find myself in one of the local boggy creek areas where there are no fences because the drift wood will take them out when the water rises and force them apart, only marks on trees and the paint is ever so faint from 6mos ago and if you stand in one place too long you may lose a boot trying to pull your foot out of the gripping mud. Set want you may because it will begin its slow decent of travel into the depths below to never be seen again.
There have been a few complete drilling rigs that were there one day in full operation and today there is a bottomless hole of murky water.
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Easements are Not treated in such a cavalier manner in all areas. Nor do we just slam some pole near something and call it good.
In PLSSia... from the BLM glossary:
CORNER ÛÒ A point on the surface of the earth, determined by the surveying process, which defines an extremity on a boundary of the public lands.
MONUMENT ÛÒ A physical structure, such as an iron post, marked stone or tree in place, which marks the location of a corner point established by a Cadastral Survey. Objects, to be ranked as monuments, should have certain physical properties such as visibility, durability and stability, and they must define location without resorting to measurements. ÛÏMonumentÛ and ÛÏcornerÛ are not synonymous, although the two terms are often used largely in the same sense.
Much of the debate here seems to be focused on stability. When asked if the fence post is stable; the obvious answer is it depends.
If a fence post is stable one would not have to resort to measurements to define location... so a dimpled spike in the top of a 10ft railroad tie fence post, 4ft of which is embedded in 200lbs of concrete would be stable in this region. This likely wouldn't be as stable in a locale with notoriously unstable soils like Texas.
Unfortunately, gray areas do exist despite our best efforts to make everything black and white.
We now know, without a doubt, that a fence post as a monument won't pass muster with Kent.
Carry on.
Kevin Samuel, post: 365684, member: 96 wrote: This likely wouldn't be as stable in a locale with notoriously unstable soils like Texas.
Aha moment!
Actually, Kent's photo above does create a pin cushion, although he disagrees with that view point. A line monument is no different from a corner monument. Setting something at an offset is still a pin cushion. This is an offset because the odds of the projected center line to the west of the line monument being an identical bearing as the projected center line to the east is slim to none. Hence, the marker set will align in one direction perfectly, but not in the other. It may not be very far off line, but Kent is never off line., but his pin cushion is.
Holy Cow, post: 365692, member: 50 wrote: Actually, Kent's photo above does create a pin cushion, although he disagrees with that view point. A line monument is no different from a corner monument. Setting something at an offset is still a pin cushion. This is an offset because the odds of the projected center line to the west of the line monument being an identical bearing as the projected center line to the east is slim to none.
No, sorry. The record line runs though the post and continues for a couple hundred feet to a "point" at a bluff. The spike and washer is on that same line as nearly as it can be determined, given the dilapidated, leaning condition of the post. The difference is that the spike and washer is permanent and definite whereas the post ain't.
Kevin Samuel, post: 365684, member: 96 wrote: If a fence post is stable one would not have to resort to measurements to define location... so a dimpled spike in the top of a 10ft railroad tie fence post, 4ft of which is embedded in 200lbs of concrete would be stable in this region. This likely wouldn't be as stable in a locale with notoriously unstable soils like Texas.
If you have ten-foot long railroad ties standardly used for fence post in PLSSia, do you also have many unicorns? I suppose it's possible that only the 8-foot ties end up in Texas, so I'm just askin'.
Ain't nothin' perm'nent 'cept death 'n' taxes.
The closest thing to permanent would be the point on the bluff that no one can see. It's a concept. In a million years the bluff will have eroded by a quarter-inch but the concept of the point on the bluff will still exist.;-)
Crossing ties far exceed eight feet. Maybe that's what he meant to say.
Lamon Miller, post: 364802, member: 553 wrote: A while back I received a call from a land owner about property she wants to sell. Her and her neighbors descriptions are horrible, many with bounds only, but they all have fences. All the nearby lots appear to be 40' to 50' wide and around 150' deep. I turned down the survey and apparently so did several other surveyors.
Yesterday I get a call from her attorney who completely understands the problem so he suggest that I prepare plats showing the centerline/corners of the fence post to be used in boundary agreements. Apparently all the neighbors are in agreement so I agree to take on the job. I can set monuments along the road but several corners in the rear will occupied by chain link fence post.
Is it acceptable to use an existing fence post as a corner monument? Obviously they will be much larger than the minimum size monument in the standards.
Yes, fence posts are quite acceptable.
Tag them or make unique markings on them to make Kent happy.
If you have to move (or remove) the post to place an iron rod as the corner, the post would be the corner. Don't mess with it or you'll knock it out of position. If it's really loose, pull that post and set your iron!
Holy Cow, post: 365702, member: 50 wrote: Ain't nothin' perm'nent 'cept death 'n' taxes.
Actually, just about anything set in a drill hole in a rock outcrop is exceptionally permanent. Considering how well similar 3/8" x 8" spikes with stamped 2" aluminum washers have lasted in other places I set them 25 years ago, I'd put my money on them outlasting anyone alive today or born in the next fifty years.
Peter Ehlert, post: 365704, member: 60 wrote: Yes, fence posts are quite acceptable.
Tag them or make unique markings on them.
So, in other words, if a particular fence posting leaning out of plumb is to be used as a boundary monument, a professional surveyor should:
(a) identify posterity where on the post the corner supposedly marked by the post is located, and
(b) provide some means for some other surveyor fifty years from now to be able to know with some confidence whether or not the post he or she finds in place is the same post that is described in the agreement that established the corner of the lot and turned some part of some post into a boundary monument?
Kent McMillan, post: 365701, member: 3 wrote: If you have ten-foot long railroad ties standardly used for fence post in PLSSia, do you also have many unicorns? I suppose it's possible that only the 8-foot ties end up in Texas, so I'm just askin'.
8ft vs 10 ft, I yield to your superior attention to detail.
Duly noted, you get the drift.
