So I have a client that owns a 40 Acre tract. A stream cuts the 40 acres north and south, leaving about a third of the tract east and 2/3rds west.
His house is on a bluff above the valley west of the stream, the bluff drops onto a flat with a pond, then that flat drops again into the stream, he is a good 25' above the stream.
New FEMA maps are produced and show not only his buildings and all structures clear but even the pond on the flat above the creek is clear, these are flood maps with BFE's, zone AE.
He gets a call from the bank telling him he has to purchase flood insurance so he calls us.
Clearly he is out, is there anyway to do this without going to the field, I know when I file this FEMA will come back and say "out as shown". Can he just get a determination from them somehow, he should bill the bank when he's done, I can't imagine the person in the loan department who came up with this one.:-(
Try the FEMA Online LOMC https://hazards.fema.gov/femaportal/onlinelomc/signin .
When going through creating the application there is a info box that pops up saying that you may not need the elevation form if it is "Out as Shown". I have never gone down that rabbit hole but it may be an option.
Good luck.
I had this happen a couple of times. You can go through FEMA, but I have been successful by this method.
Have the client request the flood determination from the Bank, it is part of their documents and the client has a right to them. 90% of the problems with determination companies is they get it wrong. For example, my own house years ago was deemed in a flood zone, and I new for a fact I was not in. I requested the determination and the determination company was 1 mile south of my location and had placed me in the middle of the stream, plus I was 4' above the adjacent BFE, I digress
After reviewing the documents, then prepare a letter back to the Lender, you will need the loan number etc. The letter needs to state the Structure is not in the flood zone, and give exhibits.
FEMA has a plug-in for Google earth called NFHL, I use this to show relationship from the structure to the Flood Zone. You will also need to note the Lat/Long of the structure. I have used Google Earth Lat/long and made note that is where the Lat/Long came from. I have also added a firmette and show the same lat/long/location. The determination companies use an addressing software which in my area is sometimes miles off.
Another way, but will require more field work, is a Flood Elevation certificate. Because the zone for the certificate must reflect the location of the structure
Forgot to add, and Larry reminded me below, all structures must be out. I have been told by the District FEMA representative, "...even a chicken coop."
Sounds crazy but I think the bank is doing exactly what they are required to do.
They have no way of knowing the location of any (or all) improvements on the property. So if any portion of the subject property is within a designated flood zone, the property owner will be required to get flood insurance.
What you need to do is do an elevation certificate and show that all improvements are well outside the flood level. Then you can request that the structure(s) be removed from the designated flood zone.
Larry P
But they aren't asking everyone along the stream to get it, so I don't know what they are thinking
> But they aren't asking everyone along the stream to get it, so I don't know what they are thinking
Has your client had the loan awhile or is this a new loan application?
If they have had it, my guess is a government auditor came in to check the banks records. The auditor found this one and demanded the bank make the client obtain flood insurance.
If this is a new loan, then the bank procedure is probably to have one of the "determination" companies determine the location of the property relative to the designated flood zones. Since the determination companies can't tell about improvements, if any portion of the property is within the zone then the client is asked to get flood insurance.
If this same bank has loans for other properties along the stream, just because they aren't asking today, does not mean they will not be asking tomorrow. Sometimes, these things take time.
Larry P
It is dumb as Hell, but that is how it is done. The flood determination company will label any property as being in the flood zone if any tiny fraction can be considered in it. Then the borrower must prove to the lender that the improvements they have mortgaged are not actually in the flood zone. It makes a lot of easy money for surveyors. Especially when the improvements are out as shown on the current flood map. The lenders just need proof from an independent third party (surveyor) to place in their files.
The bank is almost certainly relying on a determination by a Google jockey using the standard FEMA form. If they would read it they would know it is not definitive. Unfortunately these cash sucking clearing houses are afraid to admit they are providing fluff. The banks are not required to charge flood insurance on structures out side the SFHA.
I am certain you know that. My obvious disdain is for the Flood Specialists...
And always remember this caveat:
However, even though a LOMA or LOMR-F may waive the federal requirement for flood insurance, a lender retains the prerogative to require flood insurance.
https://www.fema.gov/frequently-asked-questions/homeowners-frequently-asked-questions#hm3
The bank can still require it.
Core Logic!
I have a friend contemplating the purchase of a home near one of our lovely finger lakes.
Since there's no bank involved, flood insurance is optional for him, but if he needs to peddle the property down the road, he doesn't want its marketability affected by exorbitant flood insurance premiums.
He was told verbally by the "real estate professional" that flood insurance was not required. Being a distrustful sort of guy, he asked for proof, and received a FEMA SFHDF prepared and "sealed" by CoreLogic, located in, of all places, Austin, TX.
In Sect. E., Comments, it sez:
"*The subject property is PARTIALLY WITHIN a Special Flood Hazard Area. The existing STRUCTURE, however, is not affected and is not in the floodplain."
Now, I've prepared a bunch of ECs on this lake, and I'm intimately familiar with both the FIRM and the FIS. So, he asked me to check it out.
Bottom line: Given all of the available info from FEMA, there is absolutely no way I could make the above pronouncement, without determining the LAG at the structure.
How someone can do it from 1700 miles away using a 1:9600 FIRM is a mystery to me.
SS
Of course the bank can, however, this is over 20' above the BFE, he is going to go to another bank pretty soon.
> The bank is almost certainly relying on a determination by a Google jockey using the standard FEMA form.
Agreed.
>If they would read it they would know it is not definitive.
Agreed. Everyone knows this, including the bank(s) and FEMA.
>The banks are not required to charge flood insurance on structures out side the SFHA.
Agreed again. But now let me ask you a question. The original poster indicated that a portion of the property did go to the flood source. How does the bank or the google jockey know where any and all improvements are relative to the designated flood zones?
The answer is, they don't. This is why an on the ground determination must first be made. Then the property owner can ask FEMA to declare the improvements to be outside the designated flood zone.
Trust me I've had my rounds many times with the flood determination companies. But in this case, I can't see they are doing anything wrong.
Larry P
> Of course the bank can, however, this is over 20' above the BFE, he is going to go to another bank pretty soon.
Any bank (or Savings & Loan) backed by federal money has to comply with federal rules. In this case, changing banks might make a difference in the short run. But sooner or later some auditor will come along and the property owner will end up paying for the elevation certificate anyway. Might as well be up front about it and get it done now rather than later. I've seen flood zones change over the years and trust me, they never get better for the property owner, always worse.
Larry P
Core Logic!
My understanding is that the Flood Determination Companies have overlaid the Flood maps over aerial photography.
You have to remember the flood line is regulatory, not the elevation. If the structure is inside the flood line insurance is required, outside it is up to the lender if they wish to require it.
The Elevation Certificate is used to determine the insurance rate or to support a LOMA. Although I have had lenders use it to waive the flood insurance requirement on their own.
FEMA - NFHL
All true. In every case I have seen they 'err on the side of caution' and force owners into a bind. When I provide the elevation certificate showing the structure out they refuse to relent. My last LOMA client with one of these is out 4 grand over it. I enjoy making money but it stinks to see people harmed for no reason.
The answer is, they don't. This is why an on the ground determination must first be made
Except in this case they have brand new fresh mapping with BFE's and on the ground cross-sections and topo-it shows the house plenty clear.
I've had a number of them that are understandable, some ended up being in the flood plain and others were just barely out. Each time the bank made a rational decision to get a surveyor out there, but this one............
There isn't much you can do, I hate taking money and doing work that has already been done and making someone pay again for it.
The map that everyone is to use looks like this:
