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Existing, Obliterated, or Lost

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(@norman-oklahoma)
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So you are surveying some Oklahoma back country. You have to file a CCR (Corner Record) and have to answer that all important question.

Sometime between 1871 and about 1915 the GLO set either a "post", a stone, or "pits with mounds per instructions". Section line roads were built - which are mostly gravel at best. Fences were built along the right of ways, more or less. Finding pits and mounds is out of the question. There is no chance you are going to find a native sandstone in a road made of native sandstone.

There is no recorded plat in any of the adjacent sections.

You find a rebar, a 60d spike, or a PK nail in the intersection. Clearly not the GLO original. You find references around the intersection, even in cases where no CCR is filed. The road to he!! is paved with good intentions. For the sake of this argument, there is nothing else in the section except occupation lines.

For each of the following - is the corner existing, obliterated, or lost?:

  • ...1)there is a 30 year old CCR that documents finding the same monument.
  • ...2)there is a 30 year old CCR that documents setting the found monument but doesn't document the evidence used.
  • ...3)there is a 30 year old CCR that documents finding a monument that doesn't answer the description of what you found, but references convince you that you have the same position. Probably. OK, maybe. You hope.
  • ...4)there is a 3 year old CCR that documents finding the same monument but doesn't document the evidence used.
  • ...5) there is no CCR of record.

You can comment on other possible scenarios, but I think these 5 cover 98% of the cases in Oklahoma. That is, 98% of cases where monuments are found at all. The other 2% being found stones answering the GLO description.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 12:49 pm
(@holy-cow)
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Dat's it. Good as gold. Most definitely existing if it was already there when you showed up.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 1:42 pm
(@jerry-knight)
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My answer is the same for all 5 scenarios. Most certainly the corner position is not lost. Most certainly it is not the original corner monument.

Per the BLM Manual "an obliterated corner is an existent corner..." It does represent the position of the original corner monument and is therefor in BLM Manual terminology 'obliterated'. An obliterated corner is a reestablishment or perpetuation of the original position and has the same legal standing as if it were the existing original monument.

Jerry

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 2:29 pm
(@paul-in-pa)
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Obliterated, What A Poor Choice Of A Word

Had you found the original called for marker or accessories, it would be an "existent corner".

To be a "lost corner" nothing must be found.

Since there is no evidence of the original surveyor's work the original corner is obliterated. You cannot find an "obliterated corner" since it is not there to be found.

But you found some things which have been accepted. In fact you did not recover an "obliterared corner" you have recovered an "accepted corner".

Paul in PA

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 3:40 pm
(@paden-cash)
Posts: 11088
 

This is a quote from the Oklahoma "Certified Corner Record Instructions". And they are as ambiguous as the BLM Manuals.

In my mind and practice 98% of the corners I find (C.C.R.s, or not) are obliterated corners. I guess by definition if the roads and fences were layed out while the original monument still existed, they could be considered accessories to the corner, therefor, the corner would be an existing corner.

But, at least in my feeble mind, I would only consider that option if I had documentation of some sort (old County Surveyor's Notes) that was tangible.

The only C.C.R.s I file that state "LOST" are corners that I have had to proportion their locations from adjoining Public Land Corners, as I plainly state on the forms.

EXISTENT (EXISTING) CORNER: An existent corner is one whose original position can be identified by substantial evidence of the monument or its accessories, by reference to the description in the field notes, or located by an acceptable supplemental (BLM) survey record, some physical evidence or testimony. A corner is existent if such conclusion is supported by substantial evidence. The substantial evidence standard of proof is such relevant evidence as a reasonable mind might accept as adequate to support a conclusion. Examples of an existent corner would be existing stones or posts set in the original federal government survey or existing bearing trees used as accessories to those original monuments. A found ½” iron pin or mag nail is NOT and existent corner.

OBLITERATED CORNER: An obliterated corner is an existent corner where, at the corner’s original position, there are no remaining traces of the monument or its accessories but whose position has been been perpetuated or the point for which may be recovered by substantial evidence from the acts and reliable testimony of the interested landowners, competent surveyors, other qualified local authorities or witnesses or by some acceptable record evidence.

An obliterated corner position can be proven by substantial direct or collateral evidence. When both categories of evidence exist, direct evidence will be given more weight than collateral evidence. A position that depends upon the use of collateral evidence can be accepted only as duly supported, generally through proper relation to known corners, and agreement with the field notes regarding distances to natural objects, stream crossings, line trees, and off-line tree blazes, etc. or reliable testimony. Collateral evidence must include some component that relates to the position of the original survey corner, including measurement evidence, historical record, testimony or any reasonable tie.

The land surveyor must be familiar with and must consider the rules concerning Good Faith Locations and Satisfactory Local Control found in Chapter 6-Resurveys and Evidence in the 2009 BLM Manual of Surveying Instructions.

Examples of obliterated corners would be those that are presently marked with identifiable and substantiated monuments such as iron pins, brass caps or concrete nails. However, an obliterated corner need not be presently marked with a monument.

If the monument described in the official record no longer exists and you accept a subsequent monument as marking the position occupied by the original monument, you are in effect restoring an obliterated corner and must file a Certified Corner Record explaining the nature of the evidence which led you to accept the monument as valid.

LOST CORNER: A lost corner is one whose original position cannot be determined by substantial evidence, either from traces of the original marks or from acceptable evidence or reliable testimony that bears upon the original position, and whose location can be restored only by reference to one or more interdependent corners. When every means of identifying the original position of a corner has been exhausted, the surveyor will restore the lost corner by applying proportionate measurement, which harmonizes surveying practice with legal and equitable considerations involved in controversies concerning lost land boundaries.

Corners should not be identified as lost until a thorough field, office and record search for evidence has been done. A decision that a corner is lost should not be made until every means has been exercised that might aid in identifying its true original position.

Proportional measurement is only done as a last resort when no evidence of the original corners can be found-Restoration of Lost or Obliterated Corners & Subdivision of Sections, a guide for surveyors, Bureau of Land Management 1974.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 3:59 pm
(@williwaw)
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Delcare them all lost and proceed to proportion in all of the positions based on two recovered GLO monuments in the two adjacent townships and to he!! with the occupation lines and leave a trail of confusion for the next generation of surveyors to muddle through and landowners to litigate. Or, just accept the positions as the best evidence for lack of evidence to the contrary.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:00 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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> Delcare them all lost and proceed to proportion in all of the positions based on two recovered GLO monuments in the two adjacent townships and to he!! with the occupation lines and leave a trail of confusion for the next generation of surveyors to muddle through and landowners to litigate. Or, just accept the positions as the best evidence for lack of evidence to the contrary.
[sarcasm]the trouble with that is that every corner I could use to proportion from has the same issues.[/sarcasm]

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:05 pm
(@paden-cash)
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Here's a good example...

of an Oklahoma Surveyor that split the east-west roadbed and lined-up with the north-south quarter line fences. He set a quarter-corner strictly on occupation and use.

The corner misses an east-west split by 13' and the point is 28' north of being on line between the adjacent section corners....but it fits the road and the fences.

I guess I'm proud of him for being honest and stating such on his CCR.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:17 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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I generally say to my people that if they find they original GLO monument, it is existing. If they find nothing and have to resort to proportioning, it is lost. Everything else is obliterated. That may be slightly oversimplified, but I think it covers 99% of cases.

I just wonder about how many times somebody has slammed a piece of iron into the center of a road intersection and then "found" it 5 seconds later. And maybe that isn't so bad. But if so, I'd like to know what I'm following.

Got a situation - on a E/W township line- here where somebody "found" such an iron in 1982 and filed a CCR. In 1989 another somebody "found" an iron in the same intersection and filed another CCR. Trouble is, they weren't the same irons. Now there are 2 irons in that intersection 4 feet apart. I've decided which one to use because the quarter sections in each direction are with 0.2' of single proportionate distance. But that doesn't make it right. It just means that misery loves company. It also means that somebody used those monuments more recently than 1989 and didn't file.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:19 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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Here's a good example...

> I guess I'm proud of him for being honest and stating such on his CCR.
I agree and I don't have a problem with that at all. I have more of a problem with just accepting a found iron with no other supporting evidence.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:25 pm
(@paden-cash)
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a daunting task..

for sure. The way I see it: if there's a pin in the ground, there's a survey somewhere...finding out who, why, when and where can be a bitc*...

I only accept an orphan piece of rebar if it fits some certain criteria (that I'm generally not too certain about...).

Does it's geometry fit within the section? Does it fit occupation? How old did it look or how deep was it?

The trouble with all that is the CCR I posted above probably qualifies. Have I ever honored a pin that was slammed in the ground by some numb-nuts with a rag tape?

Sadly, probably yes.

But I am a very optimistic researcher. I usually find something somewhere that tips the scales one way or the other, if nowhere else but my own mind.

The world we work in is full of judgement calls. However, after 45 years of surveying, some calls still don't feel comfortable.o.O

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:39 pm
(@holy-cow)
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Whatever you decide, be very, very, very careful about what you put on the form you submit. A fellow in Kansas submitted some corner reports. Whoever actually filled out the forms for him to sign got cute and it cost him $5000 dollars. On three forms that he signed off on, the employee had inserted either "????" or "Beats me" in the blank left for "method of recovery". Someone who had a grudge with the surveyor turned this in to the State board and they nailed him HARD.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:44 pm
(@h8oualot)
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It's sad to see supposed professionals misuse the three most important words that identify section/quarter section monuments. Opinions are irrelevant in this discussion. The Licensed Surveyor in a Public Land State MUST speak and use "BLMeez". An existent monument is the ORIGINAL one and/or its accessories set in ORIGINAL survey. If the surveyor has one or all of these, or in their absence, credible parole testimony, then the monument MUST be identified as EXISTENT. Yes, the Licensed Surveyor can set a monument by parole testimony and identify it as EXISTENT. I have filed around 300 CCRs and have filed existent when any of the criteria I mentioned has been fulfilled. If the Licensed Surveyor SETS a monuments using proportionate measurement then the monument is LOST and should be identified on ALL subsequent CCRs as LOST. All other monuments are obliterated by BLM definition. An obliterated monument, BLM definition, may be in place when you uncover it, and therefore be "existing" by your definition because it was already in place. However, the Licensed Surveyor must identify it as OBLITERATED. BLMeeze!!!

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 4:56 pm
(@peter-ehlert)
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obliterated in all cases.
fence pattern alone could be "best evidence of original location" or even the road it's self it that was the custom to build on section lines. Monuments and or records just up the evidence.
"proportional measure: the one place you can be sure the original monument was not at"

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 5:15 pm
(@peter-ehlert)
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I would probably make the same call, but
> the quarter sections in each direction are with 0.2' of single proportionate distance

makes me pretty sure that one was quickly run in by the math alone :-/

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 5:23 pm
(@peter-ehlert)
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Here's a good example...

:good:

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 5:25 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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> makes me pretty sure that one was quickly run in by the math alone :-/
Let me make myself clear. The quarter section corners are at SP bearing/distance between section cors. if I hold one of the 2 possible middle section corners. I'm not asking for advice on that, I'm just commiserating about the really iffy quality of the existing evidence. This not an isolated case, it's SOP hereabouts.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 6:07 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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> .. A fellow in Kansas submitted some corner reports.... On three forms that he signed off on, the employee had inserted either "????" or "Beats me" in the blank left for "method of recovery".
One of the fellows in our office is a Kansas registrant, so I had heard about that. I suspect that the unspoken truth is that the penalty was more for failing to provide proper supervision than for filing records with those comments.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 6:12 pm
(@jerry-knight)
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These BLM terms are not quite so easily and clearly defined. The 2009 BLM Manual at Sec. 6-11 defines an existent corner as "one whose position can be identified by substantial evidence of the monument or its accessories, by reference to the description in the field notes, or located by an acceptable supplemental survey record, some physical evidence, or reliable testimony."

At Sec. 6-17 "An obliterated corner is an existent corner where, at the corner's original position, there are no remaining traces of the monument or its accessories but whose position has been perpetuated, or the point for which may be recovered, by substantial evidence from the acts or reliable testimony of the interested landowners, competent surveyors , other qualified local authorities, or witnesses, or by some acceptable record evidence."

Later the Manual talks of "Direct Evidence of Existent and Obliterated Corners". This perhaps could be interpreted as if they or two different situations or perhaps it indicates they are the same. Whether the monument is an original or perpetuated position it has the same legal standing.

I take it that an 'existent corner' can be either the position of the original corner monument or the position of the 'obliterated' corner monument. The term 'obliterated' seems to me to be a subset of the existing corner where there is no evidence of the original monument. But an obliterated corner is per BLM an existent corner.

Just my understanding of it.
Jerry

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 7:35 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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> These BLM terms are not quite so easily and clearly defined. The 2009 BLM Manual ...
This language about "an obliterated corner is an existent corner ..." is new in the 2009 manual.

 
Posted : 29/04/2013 8:08 pm
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