Ethics Question

Of course, after we issue a survey, we have no control over who looks over our work. Having someone else in the surveying field "look" over one's work is guaranteed to make anybody feel a bit uneasy. A surveyor unlicensed in your state may have an opinion, but I doubt that opinion would have much substance.

If I were you I wouldn't worry too much. Hopefully he's already paid up. If he hasn't paid, it might just be a ruse to "chisel" on the bill. I HAVE seen that happen. A tightwad will grasp at straws when feeling desperate. Be professional, even when the client clearly isn't.....

hlbennettpls, post: 326112, member: 10049 wrote: Reason I'm asking is that It's of my opinion that this is an unprofessional move by the reviewing surveyor. I don't think it's very ethical to comment on things your license doesn't cover, but I may be looking at it all wrong. Thanks.

No I think you are off base completely. It is only someone rendering their opinion and in this case it is qualified by the fact that they are not licensed in your state.
Everyday surveyors are asked to give their opinion. Some are flown into states to give expert testimony and some are flown into states to present seminars etc. where they are not licensed . Courts and state associations have no problem with their opinions.
In my opinion, reporting them to their state board is very very unprofessional conduct.
I also feel that you have no right to try to restrict who your client(public) chose to review their survey. It is your client that I would try to communicate yout concerns.
Like I said, that is my opinion and there wil be others here for sure.

Ya know, I think Robert is right. Once we sign and release a plat, it heads into the mosh pit. It gets reviewed. By attorneys, by fishermen, by Real Estate agents, by buyers, by sellers, by everybody. It's an open season. Do good work, and you will smell like a rose.
N

I agree, with the fact that it gets reviewed by many, but this other surveyor is making comments that simply aren't required by my state. He also has no common knowledge of the local customs of practice in the area. I think it's very difficult to give an adequate opinion on something when I have no experience in the matter. I'm licensed in FL, and Nate I see you are licensed in Arkansas, I wouldn't comment on one of your surveys in Arkansas without at least informing my client that I have 0 experience in surveying in Arkansas, all I can attest to is what I see on the paper in front of me (drafting, geometry etc.).

And yes, the client has paid in full, for a survey that meets or exceeds all state standards of practice in my state and that the title company has used for their work and are ready to close, but b/c he had this outside party review the work, and the outside party has questions he's holding up the closing and is nickel and diming the survey to death over items that aren't really relevant to what he asked for in the initial contract. I don't mind doing them, I guess what bothers me is that he hired me for my local knowledge (we had surveyed this previously 12 years ago) as well as my expertise and now apparently doesn't trust my work. I understand we are professionals and our work is subject to review and second opinions by others, I get that. The issue I have, is he NEVER asked me any of these questions from the start. I could've easily alleviated his concerns, but instead he ships my survey off to an out-of-state firm for review. Anyhow, the work is solid, I'm prepared to stand behind it, I just don't think if I was asked to comment on work my license didn't cover, that I would comment on it, nor would I take a fee for doing it. That's what seems unethical to me, but hey, to each their own.

hlbennettpls, post: 326120, member: 10049 wrote: ....The issue I have, is he NEVER asked me any of these questions from the start. I could've easily alleviated his concerns, but instead he ships my survey off to an out-of-state firm for review.

There's a good chance the surveyor at the "out of state firm" might recognize you have historic knowledge of the area. As Robert said, a lot of folks want somebody to look at "something", but I can't see any "unprofessional" activity unless someone puts something down on paper.

Am I right in thinking what is "bugging" you is the feeling that the client doesn't trust your work? meh....probably happens more than we will ever know. Stand behind your work and hold your head up.

Robert Hill, post: 326116, member: 378 wrote: No I think you are off base completely. It is only someone rendering their opinion and in this case it is qualified by the fact that they are not licensed in your state.
Everyday surveyors are asked to give their opinion. Some are flown into states to give expert testimony and some are flown into states to present seminars etc. where they are not licensed . Courts and state associations have no problem with their opinions.
In my opinion, reporting them to their state board is very very unprofessional conduct.
I also feel that you have no right to try to restrict who your client(public) chose to review their survey. It is your client that I would try to communicate yout concerns.
Like I said, that is my opinion and there wil be others here for sure.

I have NEVER seen this happen. I have seen it tried in my state and in Louisiana, but I have never seen it be successful. A sharp lawyer would NEVER allow expert testimony on compliance to state standards by someone that is not registered in the particular state . Standards vary widely from state to state and saying, in essence,"This is how we do it in Vermont" would not fly far in Louisiana.
There's a BIG difference between teaching a class at a seminar and giving expert testimony in a court of law. You simply cannot compare the two.

MTS (now known as Standards of Practice) is available online from the Florida Board. A review is just that, not practicing without a license. Attorneys and title agents don't typically have licenses but they comment on surveys all the time. it's somebody's opinion. nothing else.

cptdent, post: 326124, member: 527 wrote: I have NEVER seen this happen. I have seen it tried in my state and in Louisiana, but I have never seen it be successful. A sharp lawyer would NEVER allow expert testimony on compliance to state standards by someone that is not registered in the particular state . Standards vary widely from state to state and saying, in essence,"This is how we do it in Vermont" would not fly far in Louisiana.
There's a BIG difference between teaching a class at a seminar and giving expert testimony in a court of law. You simply cannot compare the two.

Yes, and I agree it happens, like you said, probably more than I'd care to know. My problem is, this is one of around 15 projects we've done for this guy, and now he takes issue with this one. I've saved him countless amounts of money by having local knowledge of the area and then he does this. I've never once not trusted him to pay his bill. Kind of a slap in the face I guess. No doubt I'll stand behind my work though. We've gone well and above any minimum state requirements for the survey he was asking for. Thanks.

If I were asked to review another surveyor's work because his client had misgivings, my first move would be to let the other guy know what I was doing and why. If the other guy has problems with your work and didn't communicate with you about them first, I'd call that unethical - I don't care what state he's from.

I sense a hidden agenda on the part of your client -what's his beef?. Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you stand by your work and your product meets or exceeds the state requirements, and the title company accepts it, and the opposite party accepts it, and you've been paid - why worry? Tell 'em you've done all you're going to do.

Would I complain to the other guy's board? Nope, it wouldn't be worth my time, and likely little would come of it anyway.

SS

Standards vary all over the place. It is difficult enough for a nearby surveyor to critique your plat let alone one from Timbuktu. Nitpicking is easy but meaningless in the big picture. Sure, any little thing the guy mentions might give your client something to gig you on.....like your symbols are too small. That is an opinion, not a set-in-stone statute. The other guy might be from a place where every survey involves showing far more detail than what is standard in your area. For example, in my area a boundary survey focuses on nothing but the boundary unless specifically requested up front. No topo. No structures. No driveways. No trees. No mailbox. Not even easements, unless specifically requested. Now, if you work in an area where all of that is supposed to be shown, then it had better be shown.

Holy Cow, post: 326132, member: 50 wrote: Standards vary all over the place. It is difficult enough for a nearby surveyor to critique your plat let alone one from Timbuktu. Nitpicking is easy but meaningless in the big picture. Sure, any little thing the guy mentions might give your client something to gig you on.....like your symbols are too small. That is an opinion, not a set-in-stone statute. The other guy might be from a place where every survey involves showing far more detail than what is standard in your area. For example, in my area a boundary survey focuses on nothing but the boundary unless specifically requested up front. No topo. No structures. No driveways. No trees. No mailbox. Not even easements, unless specifically requested. Now, if you work in an area where all of that is supposed to be shown, then it had better be shown.

Exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't even feel comfortable reviewing out-of-state work if I had a client that asked me to. Sure, I COULD do it, but I would advise my client otherwise.

I dont think making a complain to his state board will do anything. I can see the board saying oh he reviewed a Survey from a state he is not licensed in, you need to contact the state he reviewed the Survey in.

Thats like seeing a car speeding on a highway with out of state plates, and calling the out of state police to give him a ticket.

The devil is in the details. Is this an ALTA? Is it a design survey? Either one of those should be fairly consistent as far as content. Is he picking apart presentation? Is it a paid review or a courtesy look? Too many unknowns...

thebionicman, post: 326140, member: 8136 wrote: The devil is in the details. Is this an ALTA? Is it a design survey? Either one of those should be fairly consistent as far as content. Is he picking apart presentation? Is it a paid review or a courtesy look? Too many unknowns...

No, it's just a standard boundary survey being used for a real estate transaction. Yes, he's picking on presentation and content (which appears much diff. than the state I work in). It is a paid review.

Scott Ellis, post: 326137, member: 7154 wrote: I dont think making a complain to his state board will do anything. I can see the board saying oh he reviewed a Survey from a state he is not licensed in, you need to contact the state he reviewed the Survey in.

Thats like seeing a car speeding on a highway with out of state plates, and calling the out of state police to give him a ticket.

But what jurisdiction does my state have over him in his state? Seems a bit confusing to me, and totally different than the example you're giving.

hlbennettpls: Good chance your client did not directly request that survey review, more likely it was his lender (or the Lawyer of the Lender).

I have done lots of ALTA reviews... also legals, plats, etc. but mostly ALTAs. Lots of them. Many were in locations that I am not licensed in. It is a lot of work, and the reports are extensive.
Attorneys, Lenders, and Title Companies do not understand Surveying or Mapping or Legal Descriptions. They need help, they ask for advice, they hire people that they are familiar with and trust.

Not once have I had direct contact with the "other surveyor" at the onset. The object is to make a review from "a distance" as if there is a problem in the future. As in "after the borrower defaults and I own it, can I sell it and get my money out of it".

Sometimes the review they request is just a 1 hour quickie. Sometimes it is extensive and it takes several long days and late nights. Whatever the client wants. I can be anal, and picky. That is what they want.
Most of the time the work looks good, but some times it appears that it is bogus. Either crude and incomplete or Office Generated by a drafter.

I have spent many hours explaining my own work to clients, it is arduous. Just respond professionally. If it is beyond your original scope say so and get paid for it!

hlbennettpls, post: 326143, member: 10049 wrote: But what jurisdiction does my state have over him in his state? Seems a bit confusing to me, and totally different than the example you're giving.

I know Texas has a law you cant practice surveying in the state of Texas without a survey licences from the state of Texas. So if someone who is license in another state performs a survey, the state board can go after the person. If a guy from another state calls the board of Texas and says he I have a survey that was done by a surveyor with a license in your state. What can the state board do?
What if the surveyor who reviewed your survey has a licence in several state, are you going to complain to each state he has a license in?

I dont think looking over a survey is practicing surveying,

What comments did he make, and was he correct about anything? Maybe he did tell you client that he cant work in your state but can look it over see if anything jumps out at him.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, as long as they don't try to address anything that is state-specific. They would need to say "I don't know about your state but this wouldn't meet the minimum standards of this state" type of language. However it is not a wise move by the client. If they have a specific question or concern about a boundary issue you showed on your plat, they should be going to another reputable surveyor in your state. They certainly wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on if they wanted to go after you based on what someone out-of-state says.

Peter Ehlert, post: 326145, member: 60 wrote: hlbennettpls: Good chance your client did not directly request that survey review, more likely it was his lender (or the Lawyer of the Lender).

I have done lots of ALTA reviews... also legals, plats, etc. but mostly ALTAs. Lots of them. Many were in locations that I am not licensed in. It is a lot of work, and the reports are extensive.
Attorneys, Lenders, and Title Companies do not understand Surveying or Mapping or Legal Descriptions. They need help, they ask for advice, they hire people that they are familiar with and trust.

Not once have I had direct contact with the "other surveyor" at the onset. The object is to make a review from "a distance" as if there is a problem in the future. As in "after the borrower defaults and I own it, can I sell it and get my money out of it".

Sometimes the review they request is just a 1 hour quickie. Sometimes it is extensive and it takes several long days and late nights. Whatever the client wants. I can be anal, and picky. That is what they want.
Most of the time the work looks good, but some times it appears that it is bogus. Either crude and incomplete or Office Generated by a drafter.

I have spent many hours explaining my own work to clients, it is arduous. Just respond professionally. If it is beyond your original scope say so and get paid for it!

No, client requested the review. What's funny is title co. and reviewing attorney are fine w/the survey.