Mr. Allen is the smartest businessman in the room.
> > What do you guys think of the below email?
> >
> > I take it as the attorney used a protractor and thinks my lines are 1 degree off/
> >
> >
> > "Subject: survey
> >
> > My associate reviewed the survey and questioned whether, when you consider the survey border as a square frame of reference, the straight lines are off +1 degree. E.g., if survey says "thence south 31?36'56"" then the parcel lines on the survey, using the borders of the survey as a frame of reference, support that the line should be 32 ? instead of 31 ?. The border is square but the parcel may have been interposed in a way that offset all the parcel lines by +1 degree or vice versa. Same issue occurred on both parcels.
> >
> > Can you please see if you agree or if the surveyor can respond?"
> >
>
> Use this as an opportunity to help. I'd set a meeting, ask a few pointed questions and spend some time teaching and addressing his concerns. If you handle this correctly, he could be a source of future business. Yes, it is a stupid question, but the last thing I would be is condescending. Be thankful he asked you the question now, and didn't raise the concern for the first time in front of the judge or during deposition.
I would pick up the phone and call the attorney. A 15 minute, one on one, conversation could go a long way in helping him understand all the information on your plat. To show him that you really do know what you are doing.
Education and teaching, a chance for both.
> I would pick up the phone and call the attorney. A 15 minute, one on one, conversation could go a long way in helping him understand all the information on your plat. To show him that you really do know what you are doing.
>
> Education and teaching, a chance for both.
Good idea, but the only problem is that he'll want to be able to charge someone for 15 min of his time.
exactly
" Good idea, but the only problem is that he'll want to be able to charge someone for 15 min of his time."
Not only that, but he will take the education and enlightenment that you give him and use it to roast some other poor surveyor who has to take the stand in his next court case...;-)
It is much easier to sit on the stand when the attorneys on the other side are busy trying to BS their way through your cross examination and don't have a clue about what they are talking about.
> Good idea, but the only problem is that he'll want to be able to charge someone for 15 min of his time.
If you were a land owner that had hired this attorney to represent you, would you want him to move forward with your case while misunderstanding the survey plat, or would want him to spend a few of your dollars to prevent him from potentially making an embarrassingly big mistake that could cost you the entire case?
Why would you as a surveyor care what the attorney is charging his client? It is none of your business what the terms of the contract are between the attorney and his client. It could be argued that the attorney would be negligent if he DID NOT ask questions. Why should we berate a non-surveyor for asking questions? We are the experts, we should know the answers, and we should be accessible for our expertise, and if you feel you should be compensated for such, send a bill.
Who would you prefer he had called, the GIS tech at the assessors office?
> > Use this as an opportunity to help. I'd set a meeting, ask a few pointed questions and spend some time teaching and addressing his concerns. If you handle this correctly, he could be a source of future business. Yes, it is a stupid question, but the last thing I would be is condescending. Be thankful he asked you the question now, and didn't raise the concern for the first time in front of the judge or during deposition.
>
>
> Mr. Allen is exactly right.
>
> There are a couple of different ways to approach the issue.
>
> First you can assume the attorney is an idiot who is trying to prove he knows more than you about your map. Maybe you have plenty of evidence to support that view. But before you assume that, it might be a good idea to consider a second possibility.
>
> Maybe, perhaps, the attorney is trying to be careful and check your work so that what gets recorded has been checked by several sets of eyes. In that case, doing as Mr. Allen suggests is a way to thank the attorney for helping your QA/QC and also help them understand some of the finer points of preparing plats and surveys.
>
> If you assume the latter but discover the former, then you can always go back to assuring the attorney that you are competent.
>
> Larry P
While I see your point, and depending on the circumstances of the project, I might do it. However, let's turn this example around 180 degrees. If I sent the attorney an email about a document that he's prepared for my client, do you really think that he would call or email me to set up a meeting and try to educate me on legal composition? I'd like to meet a lawyer that would do that. Most lawyers would send a curt reply and tell me to stick to surveying.
I must say, I get on my high-horse and rant and rave about attorneys, GIS professionals, realtors, or other non-surveyors that call us up and tell us that we are all wrong in how we wrote a description or our plats being wrong. I have always said that if they don't understand something they should word their confusion in the form of a question.
At least the attorney was asking, and not telling. If you can explain it to him in a way that is understandable to a lay person, and treat him with respect, the same attorney might be asking to hire you in the future as an expert.
(Don't misunderstand me, I was right there rolling my eyes and being all dumbfounded over the nature of the question with most the rest of the guys here. But I'm agree with you guys that are saying to use this as an opportunity to educate the guy and his "associate".)
excerpts
.....
Question 17, If your client's wallet is 1" thick when folded, how many bills are in the wallet?
Question 18, If you charge $1.00 per word, how fast should your secretary type in order to pay her salary and for you to make $500/hr. in one hour. How many words should be in your document?
Question 19, If you charge $450 per hour, and you answer a client's question for 13 minutes, how much do you charge? (hint: Should you round the time up to the nearest 15 minutes?)
Question 20, If an ambulance is driving from 32nd street south @ 52 mph, to the scene of an accident @ 15th & Main, and you live @ 2nd and Vista drive, how fast must you make it to the accident to give the victim your card before the ambulance gets there?
.....
> If I sent the attorney an email about a document that he's prepared for my client, do you really think that he would call or email me to set up a meeting and try to educate me on legal composition?
I would expect a timely and accurate response from the attorney.
>I'd like to meet a lawyer that would do that. Most lawyers would send a curt reply and tell me to stick to surveying.
That is exactly why I would respond as indicated. I'm not going to stoop to a lower level. However, I ask attorneys (and even our local magistrate) questions quite frequently, and they do the same. It is a result of the professional relationship we have built over the years.
For those worried about the attorney billing his client to ask you a question and receive a professional response, how much time and money has already been wasted by the attorney and his associate playing with a protractor? Wouldn't it have saved the client money if the attornies knew in advance that they could trust you to provide a quick and accurate response to any questions they may have? How much more of the clients money is going to be wasted either on more protractor calculating or going down the yellow pages looking for someone who will take the time and help them out? Would you prefer your competition explaining YOUR survey to the attorney? I sure as he11 wouldn't.
> > If I sent the attorney an email about a document that he's prepared for my client, do you really think that he would call or email me to set up a meeting and try to educate me on legal composition?
>
> I would expect a timely and accurate response from the attorney.
>
You can expect that, but the majority of the time you won't get that. In fact, you will be lucky to get any response. Sure, we all have developed relationships with a few attorneys, but that is the exception.
> >I'd like to meet a lawyer that would do that. Most lawyers would send a curt reply and tell me to stick to surveying.
>
> That is exactly why I would respond as indicated. I'm not going to stoop to a lower level. However, I ask attorneys (and even our local magistrate) questions quite frequently, and they do the same. It is a result of the professional relationship we have built over the years.
I'm not advocating stooping to any level. The question put to you et al is, aside from those attorneys you have a relationship with, would an attorney set up a meeting to discuss your comments about his legal composition?
> For those worried about the attorney billing his client to ask you a question and receive a professional response, how much time and money has already been wasted by the attorney and his associate playing with a protractor? Wouldn't it have saved the client money if the attornies knew in advance that they could trust you to provide a quick and accurate response to any questions they may have? How much more of the clients money is going to be wasted either on more protractor calculating or going down the yellow pages looking for someone who will take the time and help them out? Would you prefer your competition explaining YOUR survey to the attorney? I sure as he11 wouldn't.
Before you go off half cocked, use deed plotter or a plreport of the linework and email him the raw data and show that it closes. Then ask what methods were used to determine the map. Also question whether or not the map was copied, folded, et cetera. Be sweet but ask him so many questions, after you prove you're right, that he'll feel like a DA, but you didn't have to say it. 🙂
> > Good idea, but the only problem is that he'll want to be able to charge someone for 15 min of his time.
>
> If you were a land owner that had hired this attorney to represent you, would you want him to move forward with your case while misunderstanding the survey plat, or would want him to spend a few of your dollars to prevent him from potentially making an embarrassingly big mistake that could cost you the entire case?
>
> Why would you as a surveyor care what the attorney is charging his client? It is none of your business what the terms of the contract are between the attorney and his client. It could be argued that the attorney would be negligent if he DID NOT ask questions. Why should we berate a non-surveyor for asking questions? We are the experts, we should know the answers, and we should be accessible for our expertise, and if you feel you should be compensated for such, send a bill.
>
> Who would you prefer he had called, the GIS tech at the assessors office?
:good: :good: :good: :good: :good: (my max is 5)
excerpts
> .....
>
> Question 17, If your client's wallet is 1" thick when folded, how many bills are in the wallet? Trick question, the point of me considering how many bills are in the wallet is moot, since I'm involved they are mine regardless of the number of bills
>
> Question 18, If you charge $1.00 per word, how fast should your secretary type in order to pay her salary and for you to make $500/hr. in one hour. How many words should be in your document? She can not type fast enough to pay off my villa in Spain, Is that the question?
>
> Question 19, If you charge $450 per hour, and you answer a client's question for 13 minutes, how much do you charge? (hint: Should you round the time up to the nearest 15 minutes?)10 hrs or $4500, always round up to the closest 10 hr
>
> Question 20, If an ambulance is driving from 32nd street south @ 52 mph, to the scene of an accident @ 15th & Main, and you live @ 2nd and Vista drive, how fast must you make it to the accident to give the victim your card before the ambulance gets there?The ad on the billboard, bus and bench should cover initial contact
>
> .....
Surely you don't mean District Attorney for DA. I think you meant a seven letter word starting with dumb.
:good:
I once had an attorney called me and told me my survey was wrong that it didn't close. I always check closure of my surveys and legals with an HP calulator. I started asking questions and it turns out this guy had an HP41Cx with the survey module and he knew what he was talking about. I had some kind of bust and fixed it and sent him a new plat and thanked him for finding the problem. Not all attorneys are idiots when it comes to boundaries, but most are. I agree meet with him and his buddy with the protractor and educate them.
I have a feeling that this attorney is new and his "associate" is messing with him and he does not know better. You know, like we all did when we sent the rookie drafter down to the supply room for a new "grid streatcher" or, when working with aerial photogreaphy, the new guy got sent down to get a fresh bottle of "cloud eradicator". 😀
It's just seems so impossible that anyone with any experience at all could actually be this ignorant. WAIT!! We are talking about lawyers. Never mind. +o(
One time
On one occasion I had a similar conversation with an attorney. He caught a numerical goof that I had made.
Please note, however, that was the ONLY TIME it ever happened.
If the attorney and surveyor are working for a client involved in litigation, I would agree that there would need to be some discussion. If the attorney is simply putting documents together for some transaction, it would be a waste of time in my opinion. There are exceptions. I have a good working relationship with a few attorneys with whom I would have that conversation. If I had no relationship with the attorney and answering these questions didn't advance my clients needs, I don't see why I'd waste my time.