AI Assistant
Notifications
Clear all

digital leveling across a body of water

16 Posts
7 Users
0 Reactions
582 Views
John1Minor2
(@john1minor2)
Posts: 688
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

I've done very little work with a digital level but I am doing some volunteer work for an organization. I vaguely remember sometime in the past that I was told not to level across a body of water. If that is true, can anyone give me an explanation of why. Is there some kind of refraction difference or what???


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 12:32 pm
bill93
(@bill93)
Posts: 9977
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

We know there are issues with using the water level itself to transfer accurate elevations, but I'll be interested to see what people say about sighting across water.

How high above the surface would your line of sight be? That could be an important factor if refraction is involved.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 12:56 pm
spmpls
(@spmpls)
Posts: 660
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

NGS published a document on transferring elevations across bodies of water (or other impassable features) in 2014, I believe:

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/SupplementToChapter4OfNOAAManualNOSNGS3.pdf


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 1:13 pm
bill93
(@bill93)
Posts: 9977
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

And if refraction is a problem, measuring both directions in a short time period may be the solution, as the average should mostly cancel it out.

?ÿ


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 1:15 pm
bill93
(@bill93)
Posts: 9977
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 
Posted by: @spmpls

That is for using zenith angles. Much simpler if the layout and height difference lets you do it with a digital level.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 1:22 pm

spmpls
(@spmpls)
Posts: 660
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

@bill93

I realize that, but sometimes leveling is not an option, but the work still has to get done.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 1:57 pm
bill93
(@bill93)
Posts: 9977
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 
Posted by: @spmpls

My point was that the OP said digital level.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 2:07 pm
spmpls
(@spmpls)
Posts: 660
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

@bill93

Carry on.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 2:15 pm
rover83
(@rover83)
Posts: 2342
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 
Posted by: @bill93

And if refraction is a problem, measuring both directions in a short time period may be the solution, as the average should mostly cancel it out.

Agreed, that's what I remember from the texts I have. Reciprocal levelling is the way to go, ideally with two levels at the same time.

Two turning points/benchmarks set on either side of the water, instruments set up so that they have as close to the same backsight length (to the BM on same side as instrument), and same foresight length (to the BM across the river). Like a rectangle with the instruments at one set of cross-corners and the BMs at the other set.

Take the two height differences between BMs as observed by both instruments and average them.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 2:32 pm
John1Minor2
(@john1minor2)
Posts: 688
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

@bill93

Instrument Height would be about 5 feet above water surface


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 2:38 pm

rj-schneider
(@rj-schneider)
Posts: 2780
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

I'm not sure about large bodies or water, as far as I know you're really only getting a couple hundred feet out of a digital level reading.

You might be concerned with the dew point - if the air around you were colder than the body of water - that might factor in.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 2:48 pm
john-hamilton
(@john-hamilton)
Posts: 3438
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

There are detailed procedures for river crossings in NGS manuals.?ÿ

I can't see leveling across water being any worse than leveling parallel to the ground as far as refraction effects.?ÿ


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 4:09 pm
John1Minor2
(@john1minor2)
Posts: 688
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

@rj-schneider

I was thinking along the same lines. The length of shots with a digital level are rather short so there shouldn't any significant error introduced.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 4:14 pm
MightyMoe
(@mightymoe)
Posts: 10534
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Do it at night, trig level both directions.?ÿ


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 4:45 pm
bill93
(@bill93)
Posts: 9977
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 
Posted by: @rover83

If you aren't going for geodetic accuracy, but more like flood certificate accuracy, and conditions are relatively stable, it may be good enough to use one point on each side and one instrument, ferried quickly across between measurements.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 5:21 pm

John1Minor2
(@john1minor2)
Posts: 688
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

@bill93

The project is to get an elev of the sensor head on a tide gauge. They started out asking for a few mm accuracy but now they are changing the sensor and are happy with about a cm.


 
Posted : September 30, 2020 6:04 pm