Thanks for all the help, I certainty made some mistakes
I think it is a good thing to post such questions to this forum. The fact is we want to educate and help our clients accomplish the dreams they have for the land they own.
Most surveyors are opinionated, and if you give us enough info, they will give you dozens of responses.
Agreed.
I think most clients fail to understand that a Boundary Surveyor is more like a Private Investigator than an Engineer.
Boundary Surveyors rely on information to make a determination much like a Trial Court. Garbage in, garbage out in both cases.
Whether it was proper to accept the neighbor's testimony is a good question. Case law and evidence rules provide guidance on when it is proper to accept testimony. If the Deed descriptions are unambiguous then it is less proper but not necessarily forbidden in all cases. Nothing is exactly black or white. Witness testimony may be used to determine where are or what are monuments which are called for the by the descriptions. Sometimes the Descriptions conflict with long established lines. Testimony may shed light on the age and origin of the established boundary and whether, for example, it was intended to be a boundary or just a convenience fence.
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> This is the email that received from the surveyor on how they determined the hold point.
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> Jim,
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> I was able to determine by the tree line evidence and from testimony by Mr. ***** (the neighbor) that the iron pin located at your southwest corner has historically been respected as the common corner between your property and Mr. *****'S (the neighbor) property. Therefore, I held that iron pin as the common corner.
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> If you have any additional questions or desire further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.
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> My issues, why would you use the neighbors in question testimony,
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Subvet,
Using parole testimony of a landowner is a path to boundary location of an property corner.
Since your surveyor used the word testimony to establish the SW corner, I would be curious to see how it was validated for his decision.
Did the testimony corroborate with a previous survey of the property?
Are there Senior rights in question?
Did you initially disclose to him that the line was in dispute before the survey commenced?
As others have posted, your info is very limited for posters to give a sound opinion.
Basically, we only have your testimony at this time.
The surveyor has requested that you address him with any further questions. I would contact him and ask for documentation that supported his acceptance of the parole testimony of your neighbor.
I am going to start another thread to discuss surveys issues that you have brought to the forum.
The Surveyor Should Not Represent Your Best Interest
> I have excepted parol evidence from elderly people on the character, of a corner in question
excepted or accepted?
I am sorry this story is being so long, that was my intention. I am learning quickly that I did not ask the right questions.
I absolutely told him that the only reason for the survey was because of a disagreement between that neighbor and myself. I was really only concerned about the western line. But he told me there was no way to determine it without a full blown survey (which I believe is true). I wish (and this is what I really meant by “my best interest”) that they would have said on 11/23; 'they had determined that the SW pin is good, do you want us to go any further'. I would have said no and been very happy with the outcome. Instead they did 2 more days worth of work that wasn’t needed.
I did walk the property before hand with the surveyor, and showed him where I thought the other pin was located on the SW when I bought the property 7 years ago (no survey was done then). There was a survey done several years before I bought the property. He did find a triangle stone on its side at that location and he told me that is how the used to mark property lines years ago. The triangle stone line up perfect with the tree line.
Like I said it wasn't a matter of in my favor or the neighbor's favor, I just wanted to know what was what. There wouldn't have been a need to do the rest of the work and they could have saved me a whole bunch of money. Again this is my mistake for not educating myself beforehand. I have paid the price for my ignorance. I thought I made my desires very clear to the surveyor and I take full responsibility for my mistakes, I wish they would have told me that testimony would be a factor in determining the boundary. I would have made sure they knew about the other neighbor’s testimony. I did go back and look at our contract and doesn’t say anything about testimony. The contract does say they will contact the neighbors for permission to enter the property and it talks about fence lines, tree lines, historical markers, deeds and pins. I did give them the other land owners names, and addresses so they could contact contact them.
You are 100% correct
The triangle stone is very interesting if it was an original.
There may be a question of Sr/Jr rights in question.
I don't know what this means "There may be a question of Sr/Jr rights in question."
The stone was something the surveyor pointed out to me when we walked the property.
Again, I showed him where I thought pin was, and he pointed that stone out to me.
Just Because The Located The SW Corner On 11/23...
...does not mean they has enough information to determine it's likelihood of being correct. That is most likely what occurred on the next few days.
Knowing there was a dispute on a corner I would have sought evidence away from your lot that either supported or denied that corner. Those offsite points do not always get shown on the Lot Survey. Even without a dispute I get additional monuments. I really would not want to return later to do an adjacent survey and find something that changes my prior opinion.
Paul in PA
When neighboring parcel descriptions overlap then generally the Senior parcel gets full measure and the Junior parcel gets the remainder which could be substantially less than the description would otherwise indicate.
Senior rights are determined by following the chain of deeds back in time in the recorder's office. The parcel that first recorded wins, in theory at least. For example, California is a race/notice state therefore it isn't necessarily a pure question of who won the race to the recorder's office. Also boundaries established long ago in good faith by the junior parcel may defeat senior rights.
For example, assume Mr. Gray owned a nominally 100' wide parcel. He deeds the west 50' to Mr. White and shortly thereafter he Deeds the east 50' to Mr. Black.
It is later found by a surveyor that the mother parcel is only 95' wide. Someone has a skinnier parcel than they thought they had.
A. Say Mr. White's Deed recorded first, his parcel is 50' wide and Mr. Black's is 45' wide.
B. On the other hand say Mr. Black's parcel recorded first. His parcel would then be 50' wide unless it could be proven that he knew of the pre-existing Deed to Mr. White (although not recorded yet) then it would only be 45' wide.
Then there is the case where scenario A occurred but Mr. Black cared more so he measured off 50' and marked out his parcel and no one objected for decades until one day a Surveyor came along and showed Black's fence encroaching into White's parcel 5' due to White's senior position.
Just Because The Located The SW Corner On 11/23...
I'm not sure what all he checked, again this comes back to my ignorance. I really regret using “my interest” in the original subject line. I’m not sure how to describe it.
Just re-read the email stating how he determined the hold point (the only thing I edited was my neighbor’s name, everything else is there
Jim,
I was able to determine by the tree line evidence and from testimony by Mr. ***** (the neighbor) that the iron pin located at your southwest corner has historically been respected as the common corner between your property and Mr. *****'S (the neighbor) property. Therefore, I held that iron pin as the common corner.
If you have any additional questions or desire further information, please do not hesitate to contact me
:good:
well said.
Two things. Often times the surveyor needs to look at the full boundary even to help figure out one line. They need to take in all the data as a whole, and looking at the other lines might give them a better even on how much weight to consider your particular corner in question.
The contract wouldn't state anything about testimony any more than it would state all of the other particulars about a boundary survey. Getting owner's testimonies when necessary, are just part of the due diligence in determining the property lines
> I absolutely told him that the only reason for the survey was because of a disagreement between that neighbor and myself. I was really only concerned about the western line. But he told me there was no way to determine it without a full blown survey (which I believe is true). I wish (and this is what I really meant by “my best interest”) that they would have said on 11/23; 'they had determined that the SW pin is good, do you want us to go any further'. I would have said no and been very happy with the outcome. Instead they did 2 more days worth of work that wasn’t needed.
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If it makes you feel better, it doesn't sound like you were taken advantage of. Truth is, the whole thing likely had to be completed in order for the surveyor to tell you that a certain corner was indeed your property.
Eh?
"Honestly, I don't care how the property line falls, I just want to know how it falls."
Your "interest"
I don't know that the OP mispoke, so much as revealed what is often the issue at stake when dealing with landowners. For many, it is highly emotional. A certain perception of ownership, which attaches to pride of ownership, and security is at work.
When a land surveyor challenges that, or takes a lot of money to confirm what is known reality, there will be a lot of emotions.
Eh?
Again, it's not matter of the pin being correct or incorrect. It is a matter of did the surveyor really verify the corner, or did he just go off the neighbors testimony as the email implies, and why did he need to go any further once he determined the pin was correct, knowing I was only concerned with that corner.
