Preserving the "elevation" is the goal.
Preserving the "elevation" is tantamount to resting on one's laurels. Don't think that's ever been a success story for anyone in the long run.
NO, NO, NO.
Please reread what I wrote.
I always converse with POLSTERS who call what they are doing "a survey".
If others in the surveying or geo-stuff fields use their accepted term, there is little need to speak up unless in a person-to-person conversation.
Persevering is the stuff of champions. Surrendering dignity is surrendering to another champion.
Resting on laurels would be equivalent to that one is so dignified that defending one's dignity isn't necessary, then being surprised that it is surrender to another.
Resting on one's laurels does not lead to success. Defending one's heritage is the opposite of resting.
Resting on laurels would be equivalent to that one is so dignified that defending one's dignity isn't necessary, then being surprised that it is surrender to another.
Precisely- which has happened to the profession within the past 20 years... Or have you not read the countless posts about individuals and businesses attempting to encroach into our codified domain?
Or have you failed to see how "new" technologies (GIS services comes to mind, but there are others) that were primed to fall into surveyors' laps were scoffed at by a vast majority of the profession because it didn't appeal to the "heritage" you speak of?
What has happened to the profession within the past 25-27 years coincides with the advent of GISers who claimed to be professional, with or without ground truth (just rubber-sheet it), followed very quickly by the insistence that all surveying needed to have "dignity" was a 4-year degree and a new name. I was there and I predicted at that time the sort of confusion we are exploring in this thread.
I have not failed to see how others have tried to claim the right to perform those activities correctly limited by the public to licensed professionals. But, there are a lot more of "them" than "us." The name changes are like the gift borne by the Greeks to Troy.
There is a recurring effort by a small group of our engineering society who approach the licensing board with an argument like "we are smart engineers and as such we know how to survey, please reduce the educational requirement for engineers to get a PLS license." Thank goodness, our board hasn't fallen for the argument.
GISers invented the GISP moniker after losing some cases in court. Many don't realize that a licensed surveyor needs to know much more than how to measure or what to use to measure or position. All of those things are in the purview of a survey. Additionally, a boundary survey requires knowledge of the law and history and the ability to read clues like a detective and be willing to take legal responsibility for it. If one not licensed make these mistakes the public doesn't have a license to hold over them, requiring more difficult lawsuits for relief.
Best wishes.
I have not failed to see how others have tried to claim the right to perform those activities correctly limited by the public to licensed professionals. But, there are a lot more of "them" than "us." The name changes are like the gift borne by the Greeks to Troy.
And so your solution is to proselytize the layman about terminology in a one-on-one setting?
There is a recurring effort by a small group of our engineering society who approach the licensing board with an argument like "we are smart engineers and as such we know how to survey, please reduce the educational requirement for engineers to get a PLS license." Thank goodness, our board hasn't fallen for the argument.
This conflicts with your first paragraph insofar that you apparently dislike degree requirements, but are against engineers looking to soften education requirements. Pick a lane.
GISers invented the GISP moniker after losing some cases in court. Many don't realize that a licensed surveyor needs to know much more than how to measure or what to use to measure or position. All of those things are in the purview of a survey. Additionally, a boundary survey requires knowledge of the law and history and the ability to read clues like a detective and be willing to take legal responsibility for it. If one not licensed make these mistakes the public doesn't have a license to hold over them, requiring more difficult lawsuits for relief.
Granted. But what if surveyors ACTUALLY showed interest and ownership initially? Instead surveyors scoffed, arguing that GIS is no good because "you can't ground truth this within X," and planted the seeds for GISPs to come to be. GIS is a powerful tool, and of course is defined by its metadata at a fundamental level...
At the same time all surveyors should know that there are varying degrees of accuracy and precision to every job and dataset as needed. Instead of complaining that XYZ is happening with GIS and it's therefore beneath you, how about you get together with your company's GIS folks and get down to the brass tacks to BETTER SERVE THE PUBLIC? If you want to constrain yourself to what the profession has traditionally done, be my guest. In my opinion you either adapt or die.
The new "definitions" all tend to subserve the profession to a new thing.
Preserving the "elevation" is the goal.
No one is saying land surveyors are somehow "less than" they were in the past. I'm not sure how this keeps coming up.
Studying our history by definition involves evaluating how the profession has evolved over time. History is literally the chronicle of activity - and change - over time.
While it was once true that licensed land surveyors were the largest and most prominent group of geospatial experts, and that we were often the go-to authorities on most things geospatial by dint of being in that group....such is not the case any more.
But refusing to recognize that we are a part - an important and historical part, but a part nonetheless - of a larger community of geospatial professionals is just asinine. We are specialized professionals whose work impacts, and is impacted by, the work that our colleagues in other specialities perform.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to maintain links to our past and ensure that the core of our profession is protected. I think we do a pretty good job at that. I'm not insecure about my license, my skill set, or my background, or my profession. I want to stay at the forefront of geospatial work while maintaining the high standards of the license that I hold.
I'm not threatened by the natural evolution of language.
Thanks for your attention, all.
I fear my ability to convey is inadequate, or what I understand is wrong or simply subject to cancellation.
If any introspection or fresh thinking was engendered, then perhaps this will count as worthwhile.
Thanks!
The term "Geomatics" appears to be on the outs....
Should We Replace the Word 'Geomatics'? | GIM International (gim-international.com)
When I see GEO, I think of rocks, as in geology. MATICS is a shortened form of mathematics. ROCK + MATHEMATICS does not equal Land Surveying. TERRAMATICS would make more sense if there must be some bastardized term.
This has been an interesting read for sure. I started out knowing nothing but civil engineer professional or registered Land Surveyor As I began getting edumacated I started hearing terms like geodesy geography geographic information systems gis. Of course cartographers and photogrammetry. In the year 2000 after boot camp I entered into the defense mapping school. There I studied geodetic surveying 8 plus hours a day every day for almost a year. We learned geodessy basic i can’t hold a candle to those who have done it for a career. We learned everything from theory to application the computations and even how to repair and adjust and care for theodolites with most of that focus was on the Wild T series T-3 T-2 levels etc. we also had to maintain and adjust barometers temperature readings from wet bulb to dry bulb etc. after we had successfully completed that course we went straight into cartography and photogrammetry remote sensing and GIS learning the geographic information systems weaknesses and strengths. But we were also learning what we would be called as part as our MOS. Geospatial intelligence specialists. As i hit the fleet geospatial took hold as the buzz word. After my tour and many other classes over those years and I returned to the real world of private sector I stayed in the as we say today’s terms geomatics arena. I worked with and around Land Surveyors Engineers construction stakers and machine control and the geospatial aka gis. I was gung ho and ready to learn more and teach what i had learned. I saw these same discussions many which i saw became heated from all sides. I had come from a Land Surveying side and upheld that a land surveyor was a professional and the king of measuring and a historian legal expert in boundary cases a detective in his/her right a explorer arborist and hydrologist. Our government and this is not to be political. Has experimented and continues to do so as i hear tried breaking the gis and geodetic surveying apart. Gis in cartography and rsi photogrammetry aspects not just the software. Then they have to bring them back together as the science gets lost and mathematics on the gis side. I saw this first hand even in my own unit. Those who loved the software leaned towards we don’t need the surveyors and the surveyor side was like they will come back around when something doesn’t work. And it surely did. I don’t know how or what will happen but the Land Surveying profession has foundation that can propel them into the future and be the expert that everyone seeks. But in order to do that they have to understand the pros and cons of the other parts of the geomatics or geospatial realm as well. In the state where i am now i cannot practice geodetic surveying as i am not a licensed Land Surveyor. Yet some practice geodetic surveying that should not be just as if i decided to practice boundary surveying for the public without a license. Today the technology requires us to understand geodetic surveying principles to even practice land surveying because of the tools and regulations and such mainly gnss and calling out datums we say we are on. There are some here that are way above me in education and knowledge and man i love talking with them and learning. Some who ask me my opinion in certain subject matters and I learn from them. It is challenging times but exciting times as well. To see the true professionals practicing in their areas of expertise and learning the areas of weakness. Maybe some are correct a tiered system maybe we just keep educating each other and acknowledging our weaknesses. I still believe in Land Surveying and hope to obtain that certification soon. I also have no issues with new names within reason either. All of these branches are colliding and once they do they will split again and then collide again. A friend is a vet he focuses on equine that even has branches in it dental etc a vet is a vet but concentrations on different animals and within the same have branches. Same with doctors. Know one can know it all but we can all strive to learn more than we knew yesterday. Thats why this environment of this forum is great. Experts in all the branches and leaves and roots.
Geomatics is made to describe that currently technological advances are very rapid, so that it becomes a standard standard that a land surveyor must master field work and office work. it makes land survey increase as technology develops. Jasa Pengukuran tanah
