18 Miles from me. "She also noted the contractor had called 811 before digging, as required, and that the line was accurately mapped." I would say it was NOT accurately mapped, obviously the paint was not in the correct location,at least barring any additional information coming forth the contractor should be off the hook.
http://www.ktvz.com/news/redmond-natural-gas-line-break-shuts-highway-126/641470156
SHG
'Levesque said there are two gas mains in that street and that mapping of utilities for the location of lines is "within reason," but doesn't provide their depth.'
yeah they're sayin' stuff but, there's a lot being left out of the story, I mean did they locate and flag Both gas lines ? There being two gas lines is an important bit of information. A couple yellow pin flags really doesn't help much there.
After managing subsurface utility mapping projects for a couple of years, and learning the differences between ASCE quality standard S.U.E. work and contract designating, you couldn't pay me enough to excavate where the utilities marked by one call contractors.
James Fleming, post: 451710, member: 136 wrote: After managing subsurface utility mapping projects for a couple of years, and learning the differences between ASCE quality standard S.U.E. work and contract designating, you couldn't pay me enough to excavate where the utilities marked by one call contractors.
Agreed, nonetheless unless the contractor was negligent here, probably have some insurance against liability. I suppose if it was a contract locating company they may been left holding the bag, if the gas company themselves did the locate then they own it. Time will tell, point is, just because there is paint on the ground doesn't mean you won't hit something when digging, the liability might just be transferred is all.
SHG
R.J. Schneider, post: 451706, member: 409 wrote: 'Levesque said there are two gas mains in that street and that mapping of utilities for the location of lines is "within reason," but doesn't provide their depth.'
yeah they're sayin' stuff but, there's a lot being left out of the story, I mean did they locate and flag Both gas lines ? There being two gas lines is an important bit of information. A couple yellow pin flags really doesn't help much there.
There was quite a few updates to the article since I first posted, including the bit about two lines.
SHG
Shelby H. Griggs PLS, post: 451712, member: 335 wrote: There was quite a few updates to the article since I first posted, including the bit about two lines.
I'm sure we'll figure it out one of these days.
When I used to hire subcontractors to locate utilities I remember having to sign their contract that disavowed liability for pretty much everything. Weasel words might not hold up but you'll have to work to get anything from them
The penalty clause of the utility and municipal codes and having to bear the cost of fixing it would break most surveyors.
My neighbor called digline and had the road between us marked out. The following weekend I rented a backhoe to install the sewer line to my house. In the very first bucket I heard a loud 'pop'. The phone line was marked incorrectly by about 30 feet.
A few minutes later a cop pulls up to inform me the phone system dials 911 automatically when lines are cut. He could not stop laughing at me, which in turn translated my embarrassment into anger. Feeling the need to express (rather than supress) said anger, I informed him if he kept laughing he was going to need more cops. That ended our conversation.
I did end up paying for the phone line as I wasnt the one who called. Truth be told I should have noticed the poor quality of the markouts anyway...
thebionicman, post: 451792, member: 8136 wrote: I did end up paying for the phone line as I wasnt the one who called.
What? The actual operator of the equipment is the only one who can make the call? Something is wrong with the rules if their markout isn't there for EVERYBODY to rely on.
Bill93, post: 451891, member: 87 wrote: What? The actual operator of the equipment is the only one who can make the call? Something is wrong with the rules if their markout isn't there for EVERYBODY to rely on.
Exactly the point. Something is wrong. The poor "One Call" technician may be expected to clear 30 location per day. The Locate Company bids on the contract on a per location basis. This is why locates are limited to a certain area. The Utility Company is only interested in complying with State Dig Laws as cheaply as possible. The contract between Locator and Utility my have a Mutual Defense Clause. So when there are damages due to poor location, the Utility will look to everyone but the guilty party for compensation. I know this because there was a project where a gas line was not located. The new pan became toast. The Contractor sues the Gas Company. The Gas Company sues my Company. We sue the Locator, The Judge stated that we were not a fault, but that if he dismissed us the guilty party would also be dismissed. James is correct. Only a fool should trust the marks. Always call and get a ticket number. Then hire a company that knows what they are doing and has liability insurance before starting construction. Mom and Pop locators does not reduce your liability. One Call is a farce.
lmbrls, post: 451915, member: 6823 wrote: One Call is a farce
Secretly obtained video of the origin of the one call system
[MEDIA=youtube]9zi5ymjwb7Y[/MEDIA]
I always wondered if it is so important to have locates for multiple reasons including safety, why is it someone other than a liscenced land surveyor / engineer can map and locate them? I thought we were the only ones that could give an authorities opinion per Oregon revised statue
672.005 Additional definitions. As used in ORS 672.002 to 672.325, unless the context requires otherwise:
(1) ??Practice of engineering? or ??practice of professional engineering? means doing any of the following:
(a) Performing any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training and experience.
(b) Applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, design and services during construction, manufacture or fabrication for the purpose of ensuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works or projects.
(c) Surveying to determine area or topography.
(d) Surveying to establish lines, grades or elevations, or to determine or estimate quantities of materials required, removed or in place.
(e) Surveying required for design and construction layout of engineering and architectural infrastructure.
(f) Performing photogrammetric mapping.
(2) ??Practice of land surveying? means doing any of the following:
(a) Providing or offering to provide professional services that apply mathematics, geodesy and other sciences and involve:
(A) The making of geometric measurements and gathering of related information pertaining to:
(i) The physical or legal features of the earth;
(ii) Improvements on the earth; or
(iii) The space above or below the earth; or
(B) The development of measurements and information described in subparagraph (A) of this paragraph into graphics, data, maps, plans, reports, descriptions, projects or other survey products.
I guess it is not that important......I wonder how many construction workers and members of the public could of been blown up in this case. I know from experience the locators in this area cannot mark the utility in the same place twice and many times there will be lines marked that were not marked before. Jp
Don't take this as anything useful, but what has been happening here in Fiji for recent major road upgrade projects (2 lane to 4 lane) is utilities companies marking on the surface where they think and their instruments indicate the services are, then the contractor using that as a starting reference point to "pot-hole" and keep carefully digging outward and downward until they find the utility, to proof where it actually is.
Jp7191, post: 452002, member: 1617 wrote: why is it someone other than a liscenced land surveyor / engineer can map and locate them?
I don't think they map them in the larger sense you're implying. They locate utilities and perform a vicinity sketch for internal use, but don't offer that product to the public. That's not a violation of any statute.
And I don't see where surveyors - by virtue of a license - are any more qualified to locate sub-surface utilities. Ever been beat by the Shoenstatdt ?? I have.
R.J. Schneider, post: 452016, member: 409 wrote: I don't think they map them in the larger sense you're implying. They locate utilities and perform a vicinity sketch for internal use, but don't offer that product to the public. That's not a violation of any statute.
And I don't see where surveyors - by virtue of a license - are any more qualified to locate sub-surface utilities. Ever been beat by the Shoenstatdt ?? I have.
First, a licensed professional as-builds them on an acceptable control net and certifies that as-built. Second a licensed professional locates the utility??s on the ground when needed from control net and certifies. Seems like it is right down our alley! From a practical point of view, I would think it is overkill but who is practical these days when safeeeeety is the concern or any of the other buzz words? Can you say ADA,WETLANDS,GREEN FOOTPRINT, BIKE AND PEDESTRIAN FRIENDLY? Why do all the others capitalize off of this but surveyors argue against capitalizing? Once again the major reason for locates marked is safety and you have some technician doing the job with little accountability. My 2 cents, Jp
Jp7191, post: 452019, member: 1617 wrote: First, a licensed professional as-builds them on an acceptable control net and certifies that as-built.
What utilities are you As-Builting ? Which utilities are you mapping locate marks and surface evidence ?
I think there should be a distinction between a true As-Built and simply mapping locate marks.
I did a contract, on some bathroom re construction, at a state park.
I bought my own gear, to locate the sufsurface utitities.
I used my own gear. I mapped what my gear told me.
I got paid.
I never heard back.
I guess it all went well.
😉
R.J. Schneider, post: 452026, member: 409 wrote: What utilities are you As-Builting ? Which utilities are you mapping locate marks and surface evidence ?
I think there should be a distinction between a true As-Built and simply mapping locate marks.
I agree. Especially when most don??t understand (even with a disclaimer on Topo map) that the line I mapped based on locators paint marks turns out to be incorrect with the true location. What I??m saying is that if it so damn important that everyone calls for locates (even property owners here. According to radio adds telling home owners to call before you dig....plant a tree in your front yard) to protect themselves from injury, then the job should be done correctly by professionals trained to do it, not technicians with no accountability. Starting with monitoring and as-building the construction then returning to mark the earlier as-built location. Surveyors taking the place of utility marking companys. Or utility companies employing land surveyors to accurately as-build and then accurately define the location before others dig.
Jp
