As promised:
Corner Records - Prior
Thanks Prior. I have seen those types before. What I have not seen is a CR filed for a single monument in a residential area that had no prior reference but was just shown/documented to preserve it in place via a record but with no calls on what it may represent.
Here is another example like the one you posted, but it has a disclaimer on it.
Corner Records - Prior
> What I have not seen is a CR filed for a single monument in a residential area that had no prior reference but was just shown/documented to preserve it in place via a record but with no calls on what it may represent.
>
Sorry, Paul, I misunderstood. I, also, have not seen anything like you describe: some type of marker, not of record and of unspecified location and significance. Seems unusual.
Don
Corner Records - Prior
I misunderstood your comment/question from earlier as well, Paul. If it is a monument that doesn't show on any previous record map, that triggers an RS. A CR won't do.
Corner Records - Evan
> .... If it is a monument that doesn't show on any previous record map, that triggers an RS. A CR won't do.
I am not sure that the act reads that way Evan. I believe that it reads "points or lines". In all my surveying I have never found a point or a line. I have found evidence though.
Here you go, Paul
§8762(b)(1): Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in part does not appear on any... [record map].
I'm pretty certain that a survey monument would be considered to be "material evidence" of a survey.
Here you go, Paul
> §8762(b)(1): Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in part does not appear on any... [record map].
> I'm pretty certain that a survey monument would be considered to be "material evidence" of a survey.
Yep...sure looks that way. Dumb ass paragraph. So basically we have to file an RS for any tag that is not shown on a recorded map. So that includes centerline tie out monuments that the city and county set. It also includes stakes set for construction staking when improvements end at a deed cut line.
I guess the boards going to be pretty busy citing every single surveyor in the state.
Evan
> > §8762(b)(1): Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in part does not appear on any... [record map].
I am interpeting that now as being related to deed cut lines only. Physical change being the key words that would indicate that a fee title line, deed line or certificate of compliance line, is in a location that differs from the original lot line location that was originally created.
Evan..more thoughts
> > §8762(b)(1): Material evidence or physical change, which in whole or in part does not appear on any... [record map].
I am interpreting that now as being related to deed cut lines only. Physical change being the key words that would indicate that a fee title line, deed line or certificate of compliance line, is in a location that differs from the original lot line location that was originally created.
>Material evidence or physical change..
Could also be interpreted as being a line of possession / occupation that is contrary to the recorded map line.
I honestly do not believe Evan that the RS act was born to become a major expense and confusing issue as it has become now. The act was initially created to get survey information on record.
I can only say one more thing about the Calif RS act, as it is being interpreted by so many...
My 2¢ worth...
Monuments are clearly set to mark corners. Corners are the intersections of two or more lines; one or more of which may be curved. Clearly any monument set is intended to mark a point. A line is nothing more than the shortest distance (read straight geometric figure) between two points.
§8762(b)(4) of the CA PLS Act clearly refers to “…establishment of …points or lines…”. §8762(b)(5) clearly refers to “…points or lines set…” If the legislators had intended that it was OK to set monuments without filing records, they would have so stated.
It is clear that the legislators found that there were two cases after a field survey. The first, where no monuments were set but where the positions for corners or lines were determined by the field survey, is covered under (4). The second condition, where monuments are set to mark the corners and lines of parcels, is covered under (5). Since there are no other conditions possible, the legislators have covered all the possibilities by enacting (4) AND (5).
The Record of Survey was created to be a method of putting information regarding monuments and parcel lines into the public record. The pedigree of the monument and its location relative to other monuments was the intent. The fees to be charged, originally, were kept to a minimum. The cost had (and has) NO bearing at all on the requirement to file the RS.
The Corner Record was expanded from its original role to include the re-establishment of any point or line previously shown on a record map. It is an excellent way to perpetuate the pedigree of a monument that may be untagged or of different character than that shown on the record map. The Corner Record memorializes my opinion as to the fact that the object I found represents the corner as shown on a previous record map. The Corner Record becomes the reference document for future surveyors following my work.
Remember: we are to FOLLOW in the footsteps of those who have gone before us. How can those who come AFTER US follow when we leave nothing for them to follow?
Dang, I go away for a little while...
and I see a bunch of replies from you that go from "yep, it looks like you're right" to "No that can't be right because..." to "That's total bullcrap, and anyone who thinks that's what it says is full of it too!"
First, let me wash off the mud and crap thrown my way, and then let's look at what the law says: (I'm going to paraphrase a little for brevity)
All of this is under §8762(b)
(1) Material evidence or physical change not shown on any record map.
(2) Material discrepancy in location of lines or points or in dimensions shown on any record map
(3) Reasonable alternate positions of lines or points shown on any record map
(4) Establishment of one or more points or lines not shown on any record map
(5) Points or lines set, described in a deed but not shown on any record map
Now let's decipher what those mean and where the situations you mentioned in your escalating state of irritation lie.
(1) If you discover material evidence which witnesses to or affects the location of any corner or line of your survey, you need to file a RS to disclose it. That would include non-record monuments, occupation in conflict with written title, and if you consider them to be valid evidence of a boundary line which a reasonable surveyor would consider, construction stakes. In most cases, I would not consider construction stakes unless the other evidence is weak. But if I had to file a RS anyway, I'd probably show them if they purported to relate to a property line.
(2) This is the one most surveyors are most familiar with. If your measurements differ significantly from record measurements, you file a RS. what's significant? Use your professional judgment.
(3) You find evidence that the boundary is in one location. You also have credible evidence that it might be in a different location, or you find all the same evidence as the previous surveyor, but you disagree somewhat with his analysis. Both may be reasonable, but their different. File a RS.
(4) You establish new lines or points on the ground, such as in a LLA. file a RS.
(5) Deed lines have their own category at the same level as the rest of these, so it's not that any of the other conditions are triggered only if you are dealing with a deed line. Although they may occur together, they stand independent of that condition. If you establish a deed line not shown on any previous record map, file a RS.
This isn't just my interpretation. It's either pretty close or right on how the Board will interpret these sections, how they will be interpreted in an administrative hearing, and in court if it were to ever go that far. It is what it is, not to inconvenience surveyors and the public, but to ensure that important boundary evidence gets into the public record before it is lost or as it is discovered. Better records facilitate more consistently determined boundaries from one professionals to the next.
Edit: After reading Ian's post, which came in as I typed, I need to add a clarification about non-record monuments: If the monument occupies a position (corner) shown on a previous record map, then it is simply a monument of a different character than what you expected to find, and as Ian said, a CR would suffice. If the monument occupies some other position not shown on a previous record map, then you are into a RS.
My 2¢ worth...
>Remember: we are to FOLLOW in the footsteps of those who have gone before us. How can those who come AFTER US follow when we leave nothing for them to follow?
What a novel idea! I am going to have to try that one of these days.
Dang, I go away for a little while...Evan
>First, let me wash off the mud and crap thrown my way..
You can stop slapping yourself on the back Evan, it was not directed at you.
Corner Records - Prior
> If it is a monument that doesn't show on any previous record map, that triggers an RS. A CR won't do.
Per §8773(c), a land surveyor is authorized to file a CR for "accessories to a property corner." The code doesn't state that the relationship between the accessory and the property corner has to be shown, or even known. When an accessory is about to be destroyed due to construction, a CR is an appropriate means of perpetuating its location. Example:
No back slapping involved
Since you were responding to my post and what was contained in it, I just made a silly assumption that it was directed my way. My mistake.
Jim Frame..A voice of reason
> > If it is a monument that doesn't show on any previous record map, that triggers an RS. A CR won't do.
>
> Per §8773(c), a land surveyor is authorized to file a CR for "accessories to a property corner." The code doesn't state that the relationship between the accessory and the property corner has to be shown, or even known. When an accessory is about to be destroyed due to construction, a CR is an appropriate means of perpetuating its location. Example:
>
>
Jim..thanks for that input.
The record that I just prepared was two fold in purpose. One was to show the monumentation of the division line between Lots 27 and 28 as well as the control monuments that control the intersections. The last time a survey had been done in that area by the city was 1994 and that was limited only to the alley. The previous city work was an update of certain intersections done in 1961 based upon 1929 centerline ties.
The second purpose was to document the existing evidence along Greene Street and spatial relationships between this evidence without making a determination as to the validity of the evidence noted or their relationship to the lot lines within that tier.
Surveyors on one hand say "to protect the public" then on the other hand say "the cost of an RS is not the issue". Yes it is an issue as far as the public is concerned.
Jim...we desperately need people such as yourself to place common sense and reasoning back into the BOR.
From all this I did learn something valuable..
> Remember: we are to FOLLOW in the footsteps of those who have gone before us. How can those who come AFTER US follow when we leave nothing for them to follow?
Amazing...simply amazing!
Jim Frame..A voice of reason
When referring to 8762(b)(1) as Evan and Ian have mentioned, I always refer to Section 8765(d) also. Like several sections in the law, one must read these together to ascertain a clear picture:
8765. Record of survey - exemptions
A record of survey is not required of any survey:
(a) When it has been made by a public officer in his or her official capacity and a reproducible copy thereof, showing all data required by Section 8764, except the recorder’s statement, has been filed with the county surveyor of the county in which the land is located. Any map so filed shall be indexed and kept available for public inspection.
(b) Made by the United States Bureau of Land Management.
(c) When a map is in preparation for recording or shall have been recorded under the provisions of the Subdivision Map Act.
(d) When the survey is a retracement of lines shown on a subdivision map, official map, or a record of survey, where no material discrepancies with those records are found and sufficient monumentation is found to establish the precise location of property corners thereon, provided that a corner record is filed for any property corners which are set or reset or found to be of a different character than indicated by prior records. For purposes of this subdivision, a “material discrepancy” is limited to a material discrepancy in the position of points or lines, or in dimensions.
The appropriate course of action can usually be determined con a case by case basis reading these together.
Ric Moore
Perpetuation of Evidence vs Establishment of Boundary
>(d) When the survey is a retracement of lines shown on a subdivision map
§8765(d) specifically deals with a survey that retraces lines shown on a map, as distinct from a survey performed for the purpose of perpetuating evidence of boundary location without establishing any boundary location. I find nothing in the statutes, nor in the overarching concept of protecting the public, that would preclude the latter.
Here's another example. It's not a conformed copy, but it was filed as shown:
Note that the standard BPELSG CR form includes both "control" and "other" as corner types, both of which provide for a CR that doesn't document a defined relationship between the subject monument and a property boundary line or corner.
Perpetuation of Evidence vs Establishment of Boundary
Looking back, I guess I didn't comment on Paul's reason for the CR. I understand what you and Paul are stating and don't necessarily disagree with the purpose of using a CR that you are referring to. I was simply stating that 8765(d) should be considered whenever 8762(b)(1) is considered.
Perpetuation of Evidence vs Establishment of Boundary
The record. Pages 1 and 3 are identical (title pages) so just page 3 is posted.
http://freepdfhosting.com/4d3f4fb1f8.pdf
http://freepdfhosting.com/4edd04e582.pdf
http://freepdfhosting.com/764c274c8c.pdf
If surveyors want to be known as professionals in California then lets get this damn financial burden of the publics back about county charges for checking an opinion. Some counties charge close to $ 1000 I have heard...
