A quick story and opening for comment, since you all seem knowledgeable and opinionated (great characteristics if you're generally right, IMO).
A local land planner asked me to get existing grade in a little area in front of a house he was helping with an addition to. It's fairly complex, on a steepish slope with several terraced rock retaining walls and rock stairways, hand built, meandering up the property.
I'm currently ready to take the FS but the testing location nearby is closed for covid until the end of the year (at least), so I think I know what I'm allowed to do and what not.
I have her record plat map created in 2007 by a very good local surveying firm and I sought out neighboring corners as control knowing that I may not be able to get to her corners to orient the instrument. So I get oriented by resectioning off one of her corners and two others found outside her property. Residuals came out good. I spend four hours shooting maybe a 4000 sf area.
One of her corners at the bottom of the property (which I did not use to orient) was just outside of the corner of a rock retaining that makes a 90 degree turn. It was a 3/4" pipe in concrete. It's pretty common here for a property to have retaining wall built 4"-6" off a line or corner, so the pipe and rock wall made what looked like a corner. When I got down there during the topo I shot it as a check.
I get back to the office, bring everything into CAD and that shot of the pipe and the rockwall corner (and presumably everything else) are 4' off of the drawn CAD boundary on that side but fine on the other side. I went through all kinds of thought as to how this could be and what to do about it, starting with me possibly screwing something up (quite possible), the instrument out if whack (not likely), record map mislabeled or monuments mislocated. I did notice the record map called that corner out as a found RR spike in concrete, not a pipe, but a pipe in concrete is pretty significant work to have done wrong by a professional so I'd though it more likely a typo on the drawing rather than someone actually hammering into rock, hand mixing a bucket of concrete and specifically placing pipe.
But whattaya know? I did the easy thing first, just rode back out with a 100' tape and pulled it from one corner (that I did use) to the pipe and it's 4' short. I dragged the tape out another 4', almost to the neighbors concrete driveway, and scraped around by hand for a bit and there's the RR spike in concrete.
Mentioning it to the sweet 84 yr old owner, she asks 'what do I do about that?' I told her that even if I were licensed, it wouldn't be wise to give her legal advice, but that a general thought is that it would depend on how much you dislike your neighbor and how much 4' of dirt behind a rockwall is worth to you.
Question is, I believe this state uses both English Common law and Torens systems of land recording. I think there's a difference between them RE adverse possession or recognition and acquiescence (see, I half way learned enough to probably make myself sound stupid to the right people). I'm not going to advise her beyond recommending a good (expensive) land attorney I know, but this neighbor has been really mean to her, yelling at her, demanding she leave the property when she came over to talk and was the one who nicked her to the county for starting to build a little 10x12 pop out.
What would you tell her?
Is the local firm that did the 2007 survey still in business? If so, my recommendation would be for her to contact them. Not being licensed, your hands are somewhat tied and it is excellent that you recognize that. I wouldn't start with an attorney. That is a last resort, regardless of how nasty the neighbor has been.
I have a different opinion on lawyers. I always advise my clients to obtain legal advice to make sure that they understand their rights and the issues. A GOOD lawyer will not create problems, but head them off.
A quick story and opening for comment, since you all seem knowledgeable and opinionated (great characteristics if you're generally right, IMO).
A local land planner asked me to get existing grade in a little area in front of a house he was helping with an addition to.?ÿ It's fairly complex, on a steepish slope with several terraced rock retaining walls and rock stairways, hand built, meandering up the property.
I'm currently ready to take the FS but the testing location nearby is closed for covid until the end of the year (at least), so I think I know what I'm allowed to do and what not.
?ÿ
What state are you in??ÿ The FS exam is computer based and most of the Pearson testing sites have reopened to my knowledge.
@ric-moore Hawaii with the only test center on Oahu (I'm on big island). AFAIK they're closed through November. I'll check again.
A GOOD lawyer will not create problems, but head them off.
In my 61 years of life and 34 as a professional, I have yet to find one of those, except the one we used for family estate planning. However, I still think it is too early to engage an attorney if the firm that did the 2007 record map can get involved. As soon as one side "lawyers up", it's on and there is no going back, based on my experiences.?ÿ
What exactly is the problem? It sounds like you mistook the pipe as the corner, realized the mistake, and then found the correct corner. To said the railroad spike was almost to the neighbour's driveway, so it doesn't sound like there is any encroachment.?ÿ?ÿ
FYI, a plat is, "plan, map, or chart of a piece of land with actual or proposed features (such as lots) ," so saying "plat map" is like saying, "map map", or like saying, "PIN number".
I would not suggest what you are doing as it could be construed as land surveying. However if the land planner? is licensed? it may be in his realm of expertise and you might be OK if you were a W-2 employee of same, but not as a sub-contractor. I know in several states that Engineers, Architects, Landscape Architects and Professional Planners can gather miscellaneous information which would be referenced off of structures, not off of corner markers.
Paul in PA
Depending on the law there you are either balancing on the edge of a razor, or your feet have slipped to opposite sides. When this elevates (and it probably will) everyone who ever touched the property or waved to either owner will need an attorney. When the civil action is done, the Board (and possibly the AG) will enter the picture.
If you charged a fee, refund it. If you provided any mapping, retrieve it. If you sent any emails, get an attorney?ÿ
No comment on whether what you are doing is acceptable or not. However, you have not as yet presented a problem. You think you have found her corner and there is no mention of any encroachments. So what, she has a retaining wall built 4' into her property, that is not a problem. What do you think the problem is? I'm genuinely curious to know.
You are going to learn from this experience David.?ÿ
A strategy that has proven me well over the years is that I never render an opinion to a client or neighbor in the field unless my work is done. Mapping, calculations, data collection, research all need to be considered and it helps to be able to sleep on it for a day or so too. Eventually we all are confronted by the document that was not included in the package or evidence that we missed, or the what-about that comes into your head during your morning shower.?ÿ?ÿ
Also, I quit "recommending" a specific lawyer/attorney a long time ago. I may like someone's personality or work ethic but that does not mean that the next guy will like it.
Good luck with your future.?ÿ
?ÿ
@aliquot No problem. If you didn't read the question it was "what would you tell her?" as in, what options might she have. I'm assuming from your answer that you think none, but there's clearly encroachment although it's rockwork, landscaping and irrigation.
And I'll try to be sure to call a plat map a map map when you're around. 🙂
@paul-in-pa I agree and I try to be aware of that. I have a business that is licensed as a "land and building development technical services". So I do building plans with architects, civil plans (grading, drainage, underground utilities, retaining and sound walls, etc) with CEs and SEs, commercial plumbing plans with ME's. So... CAD guy. But I do have an old GPS system and an S6 that I've used to do a lot of the land measurement and assist with planning in various aspects. So idk, sometimes I'm not sure where it crosses the line. I this case it was literally getting local elevations and features with respect to the existing house and the property lines & setbacks had nothing to do with what I was providing the planner. It was just something I noticed that really bothered me for a bit. The land planner's a licensed architect that works with homeowners through the entire process of new or renovated features. Sometimes I'll work under him as a sub (1099) and other times, like in this case, contract directly with the homeowner.
@thebionicman I'll let you know how it goes.
@dave-drahn
To be covered you need to be a W-2 employee of the professional, contracting with the professional or the homeowner is going over the line and puts your pocketbook at risk.
Paul in PA
@dave-drahn
Better safe than sorry, especially when it comes to liability issues.
@lurker The only problem I was wondering about was what you might know about the possibility of her losing that property down the road. I'd read that in English Common law acquiescence and recognition can lead to loss of property but not so with Torrens title. That in the former, a landowner can simply write a letter to the neighbor stating that they're free to continue to use "that little strip next to my wall for landscaping" or whatever colloquial term desired to describe it and that that would be evidence of ownership if it were ever contested in a future sale of legal scuffle. In her case the neighbor seems antagonistic and it wouldn't be surprising to see them try to pull something like that if they knew about it. Wondered if anyone here had experienced this type thing.
@dave-drahn
But from what you have told us you l, are the only one who thought the pipe was a property corner.
I won't give you advice on adverse possession because that is one of the boundary principles that varie quite a but between jurisdictions, but it is very normal to have space between a retaining wall and a boundary. Among other reasons, this allows construction and maintenance without requiring cooperation from the neighbour.
