You are Surveying without a license
Is it your opinion control surveys can fall under engineering and surveying?
You are Surveying without a license
FYI-
NORTH CAROLINA BOARD OF EXAMINERS
FOR ENGINEERS AND SURVEYORS
POLICY
Title: 3D MODELING FOR GRADING AND STAKE-OUT
Policy Number: BP-0607-2 Rev. 1
Status: Draft_____ Date Originated: 12/29/05 By: Jim Armstrong, PLS
Date Revision Originated: 12/27/06 By: Berry Jenkins
For Approval Rev. No.: 1
Final X Referred to Surveying & Engineering Date
Date for Board Approval: 7/13/06 Date Originally Approved: 7/13/06
Date for Board Approval: Rev. 1 1/10/07 Date Revision 1 Approved: 1/10/07
Date to be Reviewed: 2015 Date Reviewed: 2012
Category(s): Surveying, Engineering
Keywords: 3D Modeling, electronic data, templates, cross sections, Digital Terrain Models (DTM), earthwork grading, stake-out , profiles
The creation and design of the controls, profiles, and cross sections for the electronic data used in the Digital Terrain Models for the purposes of earthwork grading and stake-out is within the definition of the practice of land surveying and engineering and shall be done under the responsible charge of a Professional Engineer or Professional Land Surveyor.
You are Surveying without a license
Design of control is NOT setting control... You are surveying without a license.
You are Surveying without a license
I dont believe my opinion matters,the boards opinion is all that counts. I simply suggest that Thad contacts the board and is sure he is interpretting the board rules correctly. I have interpretted the rules incorrectly myself (and seen many others who believe they know the rules be wrong) to make comments on what the board may or may not have to say. They are run by engineers with a few surveyors for good measure (no pun inteneded) They do a good job but often interpret things in ways I simply cant understand. As a professional if I believe someone is operating without a license, I must send a complaint to the board. IMHO I dont need to file anything in this case.
You are Surveying without a license
> Design of control is NOT setting control... You are surveying without a license.
What about the term "Creation of ... control"? Creation likely falls under setting.
"The plans did not have a benchmark noted and all the property irons were labeled as found or set but only a couple were actually there (some found but none set)."
Gee- I really couldn't tell you!
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are Surveying without a license
>....Since the surveyor wasn't helpful at all, I got to charge the contractor for getting his equipment setup correctly....
It's not clear but it sounds like you did a lot more here than build a model here. I think you may be dancing really close to the Unlicensed Practice line.
> "The plans did not have a benchmark noted and all the property irons were labeled as found or set but only a couple were actually there (some found but none set)."
>
> Gee- I really couldn't tell you!
>
> LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tend to agree with you Jim. Personally, I have no problem in setting control for a contractor to use MC. However, it will be based on PE sealed and agency approved plans. And a boundary survey that I either complete or verify.
How any plan can make it through the approval process in any non-third world country without a bench mark being shown is just amazing. That is not just "..the CAD guy left it off..". That is just plain horse puckey. Same goes for horizontal control. It needs to be shown on the plan.
Then it goes back to the owner - pay now or pay later.... tick tock tick tock... the meter is running. Crappy plans like that the owner chose the pay later option.
$0.04'
I don't like it because the end users of this data don't understand control/gps/surveying as much as they should before using this TOOL.
I have established a lot of control for 3d machine control and I cannot stand doing it. If I was the boss we would charge 3x what we do (which is already high) to do this type of work.
Instead of baby sitting stakes on a construction site, keeping them from getting run over, you have to baby sit your control.
If you establish control for 3d models/machine control you better be out there once a week checking your control, horz and vert. The surveyor can get burned pretty quick if some control gets hit by a bull dozer, then the contractor sets up over it and doesn't check in. I go through this every other day and it will definitly make you feel like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
> Why do some surveyors refuse to set control for contractors using machine control?
>
When I worked at a company that did design work, the control was always shown on the plans. So, I can't tell you why someone doesn't already have it shown on their plans.
As to any additional control on site beyond what should be shown on a design plan, I would probably pass on it unless I was going to be involved in more than just setting a point or two. The people involved in the layout should be setting additional control from well notated control off of the design sheets.
> I had another this week that would not set anything for the contractor. The plans did not have a benchmark noted and all the property irons were labeled as found or set but only a couple were actually there (some found but none set).
That would be a violation of the standards of practice in Kentucky. All monuments that are to be set are supposed to be in the ground before the drawing is released.
The control can be destroyed five minutes after the calibration is completed and will not mess up the site if the base is setup in a permanent place (as most do for the duration of the project).
Setting up each day over a point for a contractor would take too long for them. A permanent post and a quick setup gets them going in minutes.
FYI-
I have contacted the Board and at first they said it was ok but replied later they will look into more. I turned myself in and will let you all know what the outcome is.
From what I have seen, me being employed by a contractor that uses machine control, many if not most surveyors are scared of machine control and don't want to set anything that may eventually be used by machine control.
Before machine control I would check the control and make a list of things that didn't match up. Give them a chance to fix THEIR control and even offer solutions. I have seen 5 elevation benchmarks that missed each other by up to 7 feet. I have seen a control point that was 15 feet off the centerline of an existing road and claimed to be 2 feet higher than the existing centerline elevation shown on the plan/profile sheet. That is 3 feet off the edge of the existing pavement. I have seen GPS control done in meters and converted to US Survey Feet for design of a railroad. At the road crossings the info was converted back to meters using International Feet for TxDot (this was during the mid-90's metric phase). The problem was they used the original coordinates in meters for the control points.
With machine control, there is a better chance of someone using bad control and getting way too far into the project before the problem is discovered. Maybe those surveyors actually do know the value of their work.
James
Thad's unlicensed surveying thread
I hope you told them you attempted to recovery boundary evidence and how you advised your clients? And that in the past you have tied your calibration to the property boundary.
Did you prepare a report with the control points you "designed" or "engineering surveyed?" Did you achieve a 95% confidence level on your GPS control points??? All your "Engineneering Surveys" better meet the NC standards, don't think you can circumvent the surveying standards with the term "engineering surveys."
Keep playing with fire and you'll get burned.
You are Surveying without a license
> I will leave it to Thad to call the board and make sure he is ok.
Is Thad a PE?
What are your credentials Thad?
I find it interesting that some say "we must protect the public" or "this takes the application of special knowledge”, But don’t complain of the quality of others’ work. It seems to me this type of argument is bordering on “anti-trust”.
If someone can perform the service to the appropriate standard and simply is not licensed, it doesn’t seem the service requires “the application of special knowledge” that only a licensee might have.
But, as Thad noted, it is required to be performed by a PE or LS in NC.
You are Surveying without a license
> > Is Thad a PE?
>
> Yes
>
If Thad is a PE, I don't think there is any problem with him building a DTM or setting control in WA.
The reason that surveyors don't set "machine control" is because we don't know what the heck that means. We set "control" to whatever specs you like. Probably the reason this particular engineering firm doesn't do it is because they dont want to help the other PE competing for the project money (Thad).
