Why do some surveyors refuse to set control for contractors using machine control?
I had another this week that would not set anything for the contractor. The plans did not have a benchmark noted and all the property irons were labeled as found or set but only a couple were actually there (some found but none set).
This project is well on the way (a new building and parking lot and the building is almost completed). Since the surveyor wasn't helpful at all, I got to charge the contractor for getting his equipment setup correctly. I guess I shouldn't be mad because I make more money but it is much easier to let the surveyor get that information for the contractor then I can do my job.
What say you?
> Why do some surveyors refuse to set control for contractors using machine control?
>
> I had another this week that would not set anything for the contractor. The plans did not have a benchmark noted and all the property irons were labeled as found or set but only a couple were actually there (some found but none set).
..Um... Liability? Property corners missing and no BM. Sounds like they need a survey first if the first one is incomplete.
I run into this particular problem frequently.
An owner or the General Contractor will want me to get started "right away", but initial review of the property will find that property corners labled as "set" have not been set yet, and there is no site bench mark on the plans.
The property corners would be the concern of the surveyor, and I have found that there are many reasons why these corners don't get set, and most involve either time or money (or both). The owner needs to pay up and have these corners set before the start of work.
The bench mark being left off the construction plans is usually a result of a bad plan review process before sending the documents off to the printers.
As far as the setting of control points for the General Contractor to use to set up their machine control, then said General Contractor needs to pay to have these control points set if they want a surveyor to do it for them.
Sometimes you have to spend a little money to make money.
The plans were produced from the same engineering/surveying firm that the contractor was requesting the control. The contractor asked for control to be set for his calibration (he would pay) but they didn't seem interested (this is the second time with this same company).
Beer-
Liability? If a surveying company can't set a handful of control points and be confident in them and also not make any money doing it should not be in business. IMHO
> Beer-
> Liability? If a surveying company can't set a handful of control points and be confident in them and also not make any money doing it should not be in business. IMHO
It's not so much that the surveyor would, in fact, be liable but that if the stuff hits the fan the surveyor is going to be obliged to prove that he isn't - at great expense. Typical lawyer tactic is to name absolutely everyone remotely involved and oblige them to defend themselves. Merely being named in such a suit will cause your E&O rates to increase for years to come. This because the E&O pays your attorney for you. It just isn't worth exposing yourself to that risk in exchange for a paltry fee for setting a control point.
It's not so much that the surveyor would, in fact, be liable but that if the stuff hits the fan the surveyor is going to be obliged to prove that he isn't - at great expense. Typical lawyer tactic is to name absolutely everyone remotely involved and oblige them to defend themselves. Merely being named in such a suit will cause your E&O rates to increase for years to come. This because the E&O pays your attorney for you. It just isn't worth exposing yourself to that risk in exchange for a paltry fee for setting a control point.
Norman- I hear this all the time but haven't run into yet myself (over thousand models). Also, I haven't heard it being an issue anywhere (unless it is some made up scenario that wasn't a true life example). I have been challenged on a few but it easily shown what is correct and what isn't (I also point out in the quote they sign where they acknowledge in taking all responsibility 🙂 ).
I guess I have a good relationship with my clients and give them good data. 😉
I really do not see the difference between site control and machine control. Are you talking about ATS or a gps site calibration? Any grade checker should be able to set up an ATS and transfer a bench mark for them to check into from known control points.
gps calibration. no benchmark
I bet it's because there is not much in it for the surveyor . I probably would not set the control unless I either do the model or the staking otherwise Contractor can go pound sand.
What I have seen most contractors have no idea what they are doing with GPS at all...to much liability so the contractor can take the survey money and just give us little for control. I have already seen a project go sideways do to contractor going survey god , due to GPS .
Thad
Have you asked the GC to approach the owner? The owner paid for construction drawings and without horizontal and vertical control the drawings aren't much good for construction.
I would suggest the owner make an ultimatum to the design firm.
> I bet it's because there is not much in it for the surveyor.
I think so too.
The control component is responsible to place the model at the right place in space. A lot of liability for a bit of money. The 3D model, regardless of its complexity, it can be cut/paste anywhere on the planet. In the end where it lands is determined by the control and calibration.
And the company you mentioned is an engineering/surveying firm and not the other way around. Surveying for their benefits, and not their costs.
> Why do some surveyors refuse to set control for contractors using machine control?
Refuse? If the price is right, I will do it. So will they. No one in business refuses...they just refuse to do it the way you want for the price you want.
If it is so easy, let the contractor do it themselves. Non-professionals judge others all the time. We all hate lawyers and their high prices. Supposedly, Doctors are overpriced and arrogant. To me this sounds like the same thing: Surveyors are (insert current rant).
Until it is your professional life on the line you do not understand. But, unfortunately, there is no such thing as a professional contractor or DTM builder. Maybe there should be. It would protect a lot of gullible people.
And...as for us, we give control and build models every day to outstanding constructors, one's who, if the law and licensing allowed, would certainly be professionals.
> The owner paid for construction drawings and without horizontal and vertical control the drawings aren't much good for construction.
>
> I would suggest the owner make an ultimatum to the design firm.
It sounds like there is actually control, but not in the form that a non-surveyor would be able to use. If there are pins in the ground that is control...but it is hard to know without details.
We often do not set corners until construction is complete, what is the point. So, if they even have ties to a quarter corner and a section corner: to a surveyor that is control, but to a contractor trying to not pay a surveyor...that is not control.
All in how you look at it.
In case some of the outstanding operating engineers (union surveyors) I have worked with read this, I should mention that perhaps this would be your best option. Simply contract with the local in your area for this type of thing. That way they would contract directly with you (Thad) or with the contractor. You could get all the control you wanted when you want it.
You are Surveying without a license
To that I say you have over stepped your bounds... Engineers are provisioned to perform engineering surveys incendental to their designs. Model creation is NOT design, and setting control points is NOT incedental to model creation.
You are surveying without a license in the state of North Carloina.
A quick phone call to the design firm usually corrects the benchmark problem as nine times out of ten, some rookie cad operator failed to put it on the drawings.
The property corners are a whole different can of worms.
I usually pay for a building corner certification which will include access to their control points.
That way I can set my own points off of theirs.
> The contractor asked for control to be set for his calibration (he would pay) but they didn't seem interested (this is the second time with this same company).
>
>O
These are the reasons to say you are not interested:
1) The Client is a pain.
2) Major liability with little benefit
3) Too busy.
4) Construction surveying su&*s.
5) All of the above.
You are Surveying without a license
PC
It seems that according to North Carolina law that the board recognizes engineering surveying, i.e., 21 NCAC 56 .0601 (b) (3) (B)
It also seems to grant engineers the right to practice services they are qualified to perform, e.g., “…§ 89C 3. Definitions.
(6) Practice of engineering. –
a. Any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience, in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, and design of engineering works and systems, planning the use of land and water, engineering surveys..."
Big difference between having horizontal/vertical control and setting GPS calibration points. I agree with those that say the surveyor probably does not feel the money is worth the liability. I would tend to agree although I do set control for others, I just charge accordingly. It seems to me that this would be a value added service that you could provide Thad as you are already taking on a great deal of the liability with the model anyways.
You are Surveying without a license
This is a somewhat gray area but the board allows engineers to create the models. I asked this question directly to the board. I am not sure about setting the control for the models though, I will leave it to Thad to call the board and make sure he is ok.
