Conflicting Surveys and Property Corner Dispute

Peter Ehlert, post: 381443, member: 60 wrote: The big problem I see here is that Joanie wants to be compensated, and only wants free advice... she does not sound likeshe is really interested in solving the problems.
No offense Joanie.
Unfortunately it is a situation we all deal with.
Ring ring goes the phone again.

Not sure why you would make this comment...If you have read and followed the thread, you would know we are actively (and have been since the new markers went in) on this. Someone made a mistake and we are trying to get to the bottom of it and get. I've already mentioned that we are in contact with the builder, a lawyer, both surveyors, a new surveyor, and our neighbors, whom we have a good relationship with. I have thanked everyone for their kind words of advice and expertise, as I am not a land surveyor. If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then don't. You shouldn't make assumptions about my intentions that aren't validated by any of my remarks. Others seem to be genuinely interested in what's going on with our property corners and have asked that I continue to keep them informed of our situation, as it unfolds.

roger_LS, post: 381444, member: 11550 wrote: I'm not sure what those questions would be that only an attorney could answer, none have brought up here. Without being too disparaging towards attorneys, there are many excellent ones out there, I will say this; if you are talking to someone who is not encouraging you to immediately contact a surveyor, take caution, they are either incompetent in real property law or ethical as they are not attempting to solve a problem but just churning things up.
It is great that your husband found monuments, but my advice still stands, hire a surveyor!

As I have mentioned in previous comments, that is what we have done.

Actually, Peter, i would NOT stroke joanie with that fat pen....
She has paid for surveys already. She has already paid for pins. She is not at fault.
Now, she IS dealing with surveyors inability to "agree and get along".
If i were her, I'd want to be compensated, for "helping" some surveyors get their act together, if it comes down to that.
If i were her, id want to know what was going on before spending any more money.
And IF I did spend it, it would be to "fix" somebody elses mess, and I'd want "my money back".
Before we all get too salivated...
Maybe, just maybe the last crew out there, had a party chief, who did not understand something.... Scale factor, or something, and caused this whole thing.
One thing.... Joanie et al is not at fault.

Nate

Waste all the money you want on attorneys, it makes no difference to me.
My guess is that this situation is being over complicated. This is a relatively new subdivision, not ancient history, the answer is there to be found.

Joanie, post: 381445, member: 11920 wrote: Not sure why you would make this comment...If you have read and followed the thread, you would know we are actively (and have been since the new markers went in) on this. Someone made a mistake and we are trying to get to the bottom of it and get. I've already mentioned that we are in contact with the builder, a lawyer, both surveyors, a new surveyor, and our neighbors, whom we have a good relationship with. I have thanked everyone for their kind words of advice and expertise, as I am not a land surveyor. If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then don't. You shouldn't make assumptions about my intentions that aren't validated by any of my remarks. Others seem to be genuinely interested in what's going on with our property corners and have asked that I continue to keep them informed of our situation, as it unfolds.

I appreciate that you come to a professional surveyors' site and ask them for clarification for your dilemma. I'm sure many of us can see why you would be confused about multiple corners. Most non-surveyors are. There is a general fault that what a surveyor does is some kind of simplified engineering where knowing that 1+1=2 is quite obvious, and if you legal description has a simple call of distances and bearings....what could be wrong? You do need an expert to figure out what all the evidence shows. The big problem is that you don't know where the original survey was staked and apparently some surveyors don't either.

I would recommend posters here do not get into speculations about this matter. We shouldn't be doing this with clients and we shouldn't be doing it here.

I will suggest to Joanie, that she lay a box tape across EVERY corner, and have her husband, or neighbor stand over the corner, and take a pic at all 4 corners. This, to document things, the distances between the monuments, and the general direction between them. Take the pic so that you can read the tape.
Now, she has a form of documentation as to what is going on. Also document, or note where she is standing, to take the pic.
None of this is her doing...

Nate The Surveyor, post: 381454, member: 291 wrote: I will suggest to Joanie, that she lay a box tape across EVERY corner, and have her husband, or neighbor stand over the corner, and take a pic at all 4 corners. This, to document things, the distances between the monuments, and the general direction between them. Take the pic so that you can read the tape.
Now, she has a form of documentation as to what is going on. Also document, or note where she is standing, to take the pic.
None of this is her doing...

Thank you - we took pictures and video footage showing the houses in the background to document the location of the pins in our yard. I really appreciate the additional suggestion about using the box tape in photos. We will most certainly do this. Thank you again for all of your great suggestions.

Joanie,

My apologies for the post from Dave Ingram, who posted your address for everyone to see. That's not only rude, it's a violation of your privacy by Dave, and should never have occurred. You obscured the information on the surveys for good reason and I have no idea why he would violate that. The post has been removed.

Secondly, I'd also like to apologize for his rude message(s) to you. This would not be his first offense (nor his second or third) and he has now been banned from this website.

Wendell, post: 381456, member: 1 wrote: Joanie,

My apologies for the post from Dave Ingram, who posted your address for everyone to see. That's not only rude, it's a violation of your privacy by Dave, and should never have occurred. You obscured the information on the surveys for good reason and I have no idea why he would violate that. The post has been removed.

Secondly, I'd also like to apologize for his rude message(s) to you. This would not be his first offense (nor his second or third) and he has now been banned from this website.

I sincerely thank you, Wendell.

This is in Virginia, equitable doctrines won't work because the property owners can't agree to other than the original boundary location. Their Courts have said such an agreement is within the Statute of Frauds and can't be enforced without a valid written conveyance. The latest reported agreed boundary case in Virginia is from 1926; their doctrine hasn't seen the light of day since because of the strict requirement for objective uncertainty which I highly doubt is present here. Adverse Possession is available but requires 15 years so that won't work.

If the latest Surveyor is correct then Joanie's only recourse is to seek damages for the loss of her trees or get the neighbor to agree to a lot line adjustment.

However, I have not read Virginia cases on how the acts of the original parties may establish a boundary in the wrong place. Most States get very impatient with grantors trying to fix their mistakes later on the backs of the innocent grantees but in Virginia this would have to come under Deed construction as opposed to acquiescence and agreement doctrines.

Kent and Roger are correct, the first step is to have a real boundary surveyor determine where the lot lines are actually located then act upon that information. Then the role of the Attorney is to compel whoever is responsible for this mess to pay for the repair work required. Frankly, very few Attorneys understand boundary law and its application to the facts.

I see a few red flags.

First/ the Plat appears to have reasonable information, but it would only be a reference to what a Survey would be based on. I am not familiar with Virginia, but in states I am familiar with, points such as the exterior angle point in your rear yard, and the points along curves would be major reference points for the Filed Map and would be concrete monuments. Sometimes only PCs and PTs on one side of the street have concrete monument, but also sometimes a long straight line may have a required monument for line of sight over a hill. Concrete Monuments would typically be a square solid marking. This plat does not indicate any specific survey work on your lot.

Second/ the proposed plan appears to be 100% based on various record documents and there is no indications any field survey work was performed.

Third/ the House Location Survey does not really indicate any field boundary line survey work was performed, but indicates 5 iron rods were set. If you actually paid $350 around here that would be your cost for having 5 boundary markers set beyond the cost for the complete survey. You may have covered it over, but the question is; "was this survey certified to you?"

You may well have only gotten what you paid for and may be in need to pay more for what you thought you were getting.

My three most recent jobs in which I had to set property corners each required me to contact an adjacent filed map surveyor for additional information and verification that points I found off they also found off. The 90+ acre project I am working on now will require setting 10 markers, 3 concrete, the rest iron pins and I have actually met with three different adjacent filed map surveyors.

Patience my friend, patience.

BTW, a typically well qualified boundary line/development attorney will cost at least twice the typical attorney hourly rate.

Paul in PA

Dave Karoly, post: 381458, member: 94 wrote: and are correct, the first step is to have a real boundary surveyor determine where the lot lines are actually located then act upon that information. Then the role of the Attorney is to compel whoever is responsible for this mess to pay for the repair work required. Frankly, very few Attorneys understand boundary law and its application to the facts.

This has all the earmarks of a very simple one. It's a modern subdivision in a jurisdiction that requires that subdivision lot corners be marked with permanent markers. The sidewalks were obviously built as the lots were developed, so the marks on the sidewalks must be replacements of the original front lot corner markers.

Only reasonable advice from attorney: "Hire a surveyor to determine where the boundaries in dispute actually are and we can take it from there."

Kent McMillan, post: 381462, member: 3 wrote: ...Only reasonable advice from attorney: "Hire a surveyor to determine where the boundaries in dispute actually are and we can take it from there."

Exactly.

Kent McMillan, post: 381462, member: 3 wrote: Only reasonable advice from attorney: "Hire a surveyor to determine where the boundaries in dispute actually are and we can take it from there."

It seems to me that two surveyors have already been hired and at least one of them has caused the problem. Will a third come up with a third solution? How is the property owner supposed to know which is right? Will the neighbor accept the results of a third survey if it doesn't agree with the survey he paid for? I'm thinking that escalating this to the state board level may be the only way to truly get to the bottom of the matter.

Mark Mayer, post: 381466, member: 424 wrote: It seems to me that two surveyors have already been hired and at least one of them has caused the problem. Will a third come up with a third solution? How is the property owner supposed to know which is right? Will the neighbor accept the results of a third survey if it doesn't agree with the survey he paid for? I'm thinking that escalating this to the state board level may be the only way to truly get to the bottom of the matter.

This is a joke, right?

roger_LS, post: 381467, member: 11550 wrote: This is a joke, right?

No joke. I find a pincushioning like this to be intensely embarrassing to the profession. Especially in a new subdivision that isn't even built out yet.

This fiasco has many fathers, and sunshine is the best disinfectant. New subdivisions should be post monumented, and local ordinance should demand it. Boundary surveys should recorded, and they should properly show what the surveyor found and set and explain his reasoning. Above all when a surveyor finds the recently set pin of another he should not just pincushion and walk away. Yes, I'd like to see BS like this to get the maximum exposure.

Mark Mayer, post: 381466, member: 424 wrote: It seems to me that two surveyors have already been hired and at least one of them has caused the problem. Will a third come up with a third solution? How is the property owner supposed to know which is right? Will the neighbor accept the results of a third survey if it doesn't agree with the survey he paid for? I'm thinking that escalating this to the state board level may be the only way to truly get to the bottom of the matter.

I'm unfamiliar with the rules of practice in Oregon, but is a disagreement between surveyors a basis for a complaint anywhere else? Essentially, that is all that the facts I've read thus far really amount to. It will still take a third surveyor to determine which, if either, prior survey was correct. Does the Oregon board furnish an investigator free of charge whenever two surveyors arrive at different opinions or results?

Kent McMillan, post: 381471, member: 3 wrote: I'm unfamiliar with the rules of practice in Oregon, but is a disagreement between surveyors a basis for a complaint anywhere else? Essentially, that is all that the facts I've read thus far really amount to. It will still take a third surveyor to determine which, if either, prior survey was correct. Does the Oregon board furnish an investigator free of charge whenever two surveyors arrive at different opinions or results?

Not sure in Oregon but here too this would just amount to a disagreement. Nothing more. Disagreeing is not a crime. Here we wouldn't even get a third surveyor involved unless the two disagreeing surveyors confer and go over what they each did and used. Usually they are able to settle it amongst themselves.

Kent McMillan, post: 381471, member: 3 wrote: is a disagreement between surveyors a basis for a complaint anywhere else?

Rich., post: 381472, member: 10450 wrote: ...Here we wouldn't even get a third surveyor involved unless the two disagreeing surveyors confer and go over what they each did and used. Usually they are able to settle it amongst themselves....

The disagreement isn't the problem. It's failing to resolve the disagreement and just pincushioning that is the problem.