I hope you find a better mentor than the ones you have learned this BS from.
:good:
Sounds to me like she (the client) has found her leadable surveyor. [sarcasm]Has she convinced him that the post the goat was tied to in 1948 is part of a fence that never existed.[/sarcasm]
Not knowing how much a 'bit of fence' is in relation to the overall length of the line in question,
not knowing the age, condition, reason for placement of the fence,
not knowing your area of practice,
and not knowing the thoughts of the adjoining property owner -
I probably would not have much to say to the lady other than thanking her for pointing out this piece of information and that I would certainly weigh this evidence with everything else.
Now it is time to find out more about the fence.
Dmyhill didn't say that he was accepting the fence just because it exists or because his client showed it to him. He said that he has an additional piece of evidence to consider beyond just the deed dimensions and that he was made aware of it because he listened to his client. So the charge of being "leadable" by the client is uncalled for.
Who is the person who is most familiar with a parcel of land. If the landowner has owned it for a considerable amount of time, and especially if the landowner has resided on it for a considerable time, that person will be the landowner.
So who will best know the existence and location of potential boundary evidence, the person intimately familiar with the land, or you having recently seen it for the first time? The surveyor is better equipped/trained to know what features may be useful evidence, but not necessarily the one in the best position to be aware of the existence and location of any such evidence.
Of two surveyors (or three in this case), one explains to his client the difficulties in locating the boundary with the evidence he is aware of, explains what types of evidence might help to lend more certainty to the boundary location and then listens to what the client has to say with respect to the existence of any such features. He then takes that information together with what he already knows and arrives at his conclusions.
The other (or others in this case) presume that the landowner, untrained and unwashed has nothing of value to add to the exercise (other than the fee they paid for the privilege of being the object of such condescension), and so does not inform the client of any challenges, ask any questions, or listen for anything useful from the client. They stake out a set of points per the dimensions recited in an old description based on years or decades old information of unknown origin, assume the values to be absolute (in spite of having no knowledge of their origin), take no notice of conflict with recognized lines of occupation, and later send a map depicting their "learned" and "well-reasoned" opinion.
Which of these surveyors exhibited the greater level of professionalism, will likely have the more supportable results, and which was the arrogant, negligent workman with an overblown sense of self assessed expertise?
Hi, I am not a license land surveyor and sorry for the long note...Every now and then I visit this forum to read some of the interesting posts. This post actually made me to register and post.
I manage a facility on a 70 acre parcel (multiple parcels purchased at different times). I am in similar situation just like the client in this post. Hired a PLS few years ago to stake the boundary corners--about 34 corners. Paid close to $6,000.00. When he finished several of the stakes are on the the fence line or the pipes staked by previous surveyor. Many of the pipes and X on the rock are no longer available .One that really stood out in my mind was he said on of the stake is two feet in the building. That corner has a 1/2" pipe staked about 5ft. Which to me it appears to be a proper setback distant...again what do I know...an ignorant client. When I asked him, he said, "Let it be and don't wake the sleeping dog." I also noticed that the parcel staked drifted to one side from what I always thought the property boundary. I again called and spoke to him. His answer was, "fence line don't set the boundary lines." Being new to land surveying I trusted his professional opinion. Two of my friendly neighbors, when I told them about the survey finding, they said let the newly staked point be where they are and we will just keep the fences--no big deal.
I then spend over $10,000.00 clearing one of the densely overgrown 2800 ft. property line and begin to fence it. I had him put a stake every 500ft so that we can do our fence accurately. When we reached the end of the 2800ft. line, I noticed there are some old fence and the surveyor stake is about 7 feet into the neighbor's land (State owned land). I again called him and spoke to him. You don't have to worry about it. The state will never develop that land. I also learned the actual license survey never staked the property but his staff--with the data given by their boss staked the property.
Now having spent so much time and money I am feeling very uneasy and begin to question in my mind the accuracy of the work. I begin to study a bit more about land surveying, bought books spend a lot of time understanding the process. I actually bought an used total station on ebay which I wanted to do for a while to do simple construction layout and landscaping. Trust me, I am the person that truly believes that some work should only done by qualified professional. Setting boundary line is one of them particularly when it involves legal issues.
As a novice I used two of his staked points as my setup and backsight points (300 ft a part)I begin to play around see how close I can come to each one of his staked pipes. On the first two parcels I was about two to three inches away from staked pipes. It is not perfect but I was happy with my initial practice. I finally traversed to the third parcel that shares the same boundary line. Now I am about 7 ft off! I did this about six times and I am keep landing exactly 7ft away from where he staked.
With a lot of trepidation I called him and told him what I found. He was pretty sure he is correct. And happy to verify and I will be billed for the hour spent on the verification process. I told him that I'd be happy to happy for the hours if he is correct and if he is not then he need to fix it without any compensation. With that agreement he resurveyed the one corner boundary line in question and found what he called "the bust." He talked to his boss and moved the two points of this parcel and called it good. This parcel has 10 other boundary corners which he didn't bother to fix. In the mean time I searched for more existing pipes on my own and found 10 out the 34. All the old pipes are about four to five feet away from the new pipe he staked. The core of the problem seems to be the surveyor came from two different side of the parcel using different monuments and staked the parcels with meets and bounds from the deed. In the middle where they are meeting on the common boundary they overlap by 7 feet at one corner.
I trusted a PLS and paid him what he asked for with a lot of trust. Now when I asked him what is the next step, I apparently need to talk to state surveyor to set the boundaries right.
I am in a position not knowing what to do. Hire another surveyor and spent another $6,000.00? Any thoughts from any PLS here? Thank you for reading and pardon me if I used any in accurate terminologies describing the issue. I tired my best.
Swami
Client hires 3 surveyors,>YSWAMI
What a difficult story!
I can only imagine your frustration.
I would check with your State's surveying organization, request a list of local members that are Professional Land Surveyors. Then I would schedule a sit down with one of them.
First, however, ask your surveyor for a copy of their working plan or any other documentation that they have on HOW YOUR CORNERS were determined.
If you feel that there is negligence there is a governing board that will assist you in making that determination, and will take corrective action if there is negligence.
When you said "He talked to his boss", who were you were speaking to? You should be talking directly to the surveyor who signed the plat and insist that they meet you on the site to show them the pipes you found.
Client hires 3 surveyors,>YSWAMI
Hi, thanks for the fast reply! I will look into this. Hopefully, to resolve things without any hurt feelings. I was a bit reluctant to make a big deal through any legal means about this as we live in such a small community and we bump into each other frequently. Besides I am just going to waste more time and money. Your suggestions seems to be pretty benign.
Thanks again!
Hi, Gilbert:
Thanks for the reply! Most conversion happened with the instrument operator/operation manager. The last conversation where I was asked to consult with State surveyor to set the boundary right was from the surveyor himself. I actually sent him pictures of the found existing pipe in relationship the one staked.
Swami
In what state are you located? I only ask because I'm not familiar with any states that will come out and survey your property. Or any position as a "State Surveyor." I'm curious as to what they meant...
Swami
Hawaii...paradise do have its share of troubles;-)
I predicament exactly. Few inquiries I did indicated I suppose to hire a PLS to set the boundary right.
Most of my conversation was with the instrument operator/operational manager except the last communication regarding speaking with State Surveyor was the PLS himself. I actually sent him the picture of the found old pipe in relation with his staked pipe.
Swami
He said he shares some boundary with state land.