Certified Geodesist Certification

I think that's a great idea.

This issue was raised by a number of us at NGS some time back - no go. NGS does not have the resources to construct and maintain such a program. With the spate of recent retirements of a number of key technical personnel this is even more so today than in years past. NGS does host a number of excellent training programs in geodetic leveling and OPUS Projects training at the Corbin, VA facility and by some of the state geodetic advisors. Don't look at the web page today, most of the NOAA web pages are dark due to the shutdown. Even the geodetic advisor program is going to take a hit. NGS is in the process of converting the program over the next several years from one that is state based to a regional program where each advisor will have 3-5 states to cover. Given the current lack of funding and support for government travel this will likely mean reduced presence of NGS in many areas.

Norman,

Somewhere in the code of ethics for professionals, one would find the mention of performing services outside the area od expertise of the professional.

I would think an LS would try to find knowledge/expertise on a directed study path by them either through some educational outlet or by autodidact method.
I had the self-study argument with Mr. G very early as a new poster at POBonline light year ago. I am a great believer in self study but it is better if it is a guided self-study effort
He won the argument but there are always exceptions.

I think relying on the government to support surveyors is not in tune with the political climate.

and as far as I know NGS has gone to extraordinary lengths to 'edumacate' the masses of surveyors by seminars, webinars etc.

Also, there was a argument a few years (10-20) about giving geodesists LS licenses also.

Just 2 cts ...no biggie

> This issue was raised by a number of us at NGS some time back - no go. NGS does not have the resources to construct and maintain such a program....
What if ACSM/NSPS was to get involved with some sort of support?

BTW, Wendell has asked us not to engage in P&R talk, but let me just say that I'm sorry that people like you have been caught in the middle.

> I think relying on the government to support surveyors is not in tune with the political climate.
I couldn't agree more. I'm actually thinking that ACSM/NSPS should be in a leadership role with this sort of thing with NGS support rather than the other way around. If NSPS did this sort of thing they would more easily attract and hold membership.

This was brought up several times at AAGS, and before that at NSPS. The NSPS people see it as a threat to their "license" in my opinion, in other words trying to take something away from them. As someone mentioned above, ethics says you should not practice in areas for which you are not qualified, but we all know it happens. My view is that if you are proficient, why should you mind proving that proficiency by taking an exam and becoming certified?

AAGS just never had the resources to implement it, although we did talk quite a bit about it.

As Mr. base9geodesy stated, the NGS does not have the resources to do it, nor should they. It should not be a government program or function, rather something done by a professional organization. Since ACSM is a shell of its former self, maybe this could fall on ASCE Geomatics Division. I would like to see a separation of professionals into NSPS (boundary and cadastral) and ASCE (engineering surveying, geodetic surveying, etc)

There is an on-going effort by the American Association for Geodetic Surveying (AAGS) to create some form of a training program in collaboration with NSPS. When it comes to "certification" that usually implies testing and evaluation by a recognized authoritative organization. While I certainly believe that both AAGS and NSPS are authoritative they certainly don't carry the weight a federal agency does. Some years back AAGS tried to work on something like this within ACSM but was slapped by NSPS (I still have the mental scars to prove it). NSPS is more enlighten today and I am hopeful that with the increased national membership that this effort by bare more fruit than in the past.

Great post! I think the problem might take care of itself as the old timers go! The younger guys seem to have a better grasp and are being educated on these subjects and technology’s whereas the older guys seemed to be learning what they needed as the technology popped up. I can remember in the late 80's, thinking what do I care about geodesy and state plane coordinates when my typical job was under 20 aces. Then by the late 90's I was using gps and saw the need to tie my 20 area sites together and had to catch up on geodesy. About the same time gis was coming about and the need became more apparent. I also think our own professional organizations should be in the forefront on the need for training and providing it. Great topic. Thanks, Jon

>.... Some years back AAGS tried to work on something like this within ACSM but was slapped by NSPS ....
Seems like doing the right thing has been sabotaged by petty political bickering here.

Hmmm, can that happen in America?

No. The younger guys are not better at the stuff, they just know how to find more buttons to push.

Younger guys? I used to be one of those, and still am in my mind. But now the bar keeps moving higher, it always stays a couple of years older than me!

Seriously, I am now at the age (53) that I used to think was old, but I don't feel old in any way.

At one of the AAGS board meeting a few years ago we resurrected a document by Jim Reilly (at least he is the one who supplied it, I am not sure who actually wrote it). The last version I saw was dated 1993, and a newer document was prepared from that. I don't know where it ever went after that.

Here is a link to the last version that I saw, I hope no one takes offense that I am linking it here, but I think this may be a good start and hopefully we can get some good feedback. I want to emphasize that, as far as I know, this was never approved.

Proposed Geodetic Certification

Other professionals have Board Certifications. It is a natural progression in our development to consider doing the same. My proposal would be through model law and on a state by state basis, that we create different areas of State Board Certification. A surveyor could become licensed and survey in their area of expertise and then if they so chose that could study and be tested and become a Board Certified Geodesist, for example.

> Somewhere in the code of ethics for professionals, one would find the mention of performing services outside the area od expertise of the professional.
>
> I would think an LS would try to find knowledge/expertise on a directed study path by them either through some educational outlet or by autodidact method.

Couldn't agree more Robert. Stick with what you know, and realize that the hocus pocus of GPS is basically NGS continually re-proving themselves. It sure works good when it works, but in the hands of some it is a walking disaster with another one waiting around the corner.

> I think relying on the government to support surveyors is not in tune with the political climate.

Agree again. This tends to lead to a so called "National PLS License". Another recipe for disaster.

20 acre sites

> "...a Master’s degree in Geodetic Science or the equivalent"...
Quite a bit more ambitious than what I had in mind. It would eliminate 99%, or more, of all land surveyors from eligibility.

OR

>For a person with no formal education in geodesy or geodetic surveying, it may be necessary to attend six or more (one-day)seminars.
A little less ambitious than I was thinking, perhaps. That paragraph needs work, obviously.

But, sure, that's about what I was thinking.

I don't think this will go anywhere, especially since the trend with State Boards of Registration appear to be favoring consolidation rather than expansion. Since ACSM is now kaput, national organization seems improbable.

Remember, in 1941 the ACSM was founded by mostly Federal employees that were Cartographers and Geodetic Surveyors. The Land Surveyors were dragged in kicking and screaming, and the Land Surveyors complained for decades that the articles in the quarterly journal were "too technical."

I would be astounded if the NSPS had any interest in geodetic surveyors and their practices.

>....and the Land Surveyors complained for decades that the articles in the quarterly journal were "too technical."
They were, for land surveyors. Most of the articles in POB, PS, and AS are not technical enough. I consider myself a little above average in this particular area, but I'm a long, long way from being a "geodesist". I'm not interested in becoming one. I just want to be able to put a S.P. coordinate on a section corner, and have it be repeatable to state satandards. Too many guys can't, or won't do that. A course of study based on Van Sickles "GPS for Land Surveyors" would be about the level I'm thinking of.

> I would be astounded if the NSPS had any interest in geodetic surveyors and their practices.
Geodetic Surveyors? No. Guys who understand the basics of Coordinate Systems and adjustments? I think you would find the interest level, and the need, greater today than in 1941.

Isn't CFeds About The Legal Aspects? Geodesy Is About Math

Geodesy is an appropriate college course.

At some point experience only surveyors need education.

BTW I recently did a PDH course on GPS positioning for elevation determination, the study material was from the Corps of Engineers circa 1998. Needs some updating but still pertinent.

Paul in PA

Isn't CFeds About The Legal Aspects? Geodesy Is About Math

bite my tongue, bite my tongue, bite my tongue.....:-X :-X :-X