Certifications

"A plat or survey shall bear the name, address, date of field survey, and signature and seal (either embossed or stamped) of the licensed surveyor in responsible charge. This signature and seal is certification that the survey meets the requirements of the Standards of Practice for Surveyors in Mississippi as adopted by the Mississippi Board of Licensure for Professional Engineers and Surveyors. Other regulations including the Manual of Instructions for the Survey of U.S. Public Lands and all subdivision Laws and regulations of the State of Mississippi Statutes shall be followed."

Additional certifications can be added, for a fee, IF they do not expose the Surveyor to any additional liability.
NEVER certify to legal issues, that's the lawyer's job.
I'll show a fence running onto my clients property, But I NEVER will call it an "encroachment". Rights of access from public roads?? Not without a copy of the right-of-way plans clearly showing that there are no "NO ACCESS" areas along the client's property.
Certify to ONLY Surveyors duties. Surveyors do not need to be making legal determinations for attorneys. They get the BIG bucks, let them earn it by shouldering the liability.

"Certs" of what? That you closed better than 1:10,000? That you did the work, or those under your responsible charge?

I don't understand what "Certs" means because is too vague. And by soul not you certify the work to begin with?

What kind of certifications are these? It makes a big difference how they read.

I went thru those clients back in the 80s and I agree, they are a true PITA. They want a caddy for the price of a chevy.

When your State BOR has done all the work and set in motion rules and regulations considering what is and is not a proper certification, that is all I consider legally bound to present to the client on any survey.

My most often used certificate is "Surveyed on the ground by:" followed by my signature and my typed name, license number, address and phone number.

Any certification, even just your signature, is considered as upholding your oath as a surveyor to the full extent of your abilities as a licensed surveyor.

When the client calls, I make sure to ask why they are needing a survey and to see if they have any special requests and explain that my fee is for all the services they are asking of me and for them to put that in writing and send me their request by mail, fax or email.

Anything that comes down the pipe after their initial request is an extra service and I consider special certifications the same as asking for a specialist to review my work and to get a second opinion.

I will guarantee that lawyer has short form wills and long form wills and there is a different fee for each of them.

🙂

The certification confirms a contractual relationship or creates one that didn't exist. If it is to the client and lender/bank, buyer; and you knew the survey was for the purposes of a sale, then it merely confirms a relationship you knew or should have known to exist. You should have this cost built into every survey.

If the certifications are to parties you didn't know about and couldn't have reasonably be expected to know about, then it creates a new contract. This creates a new party you will be liable to and will have to respond to if a lawsuit results. A fair price can be determined by asking an attorney what they would charge to write a letter of response should that new party file a suit against you for a contract violation. I have found that to be in the neighborhood of 500 dollars. When I explain this to attorneys that ask for more certifications they kind of chuckle and say "hey, we have to try, but I guess we won't need that".

If the certification asks for any new items to be certified to, then it expands the contract and a fee for those items should be negotiated. Violation of a contract item is easily proven and you are liable for 6 years. Most lawsuits that surveyors lose are due to contract rather than negligence issues. Professional negligence is difficult to prove and liability is generally over in a shorter time span than contract liability.

You should always ask one key question. "Why?"

Why is the attorney asking for this certification?

Usually the answer is one of two reasons.

One reason is the attorney has no real clue but is doing what they are doing because "this is the way it is always done". When dealing with this sort of attorney expect to spend lots of time trying to educate the attorney. Often you will hear something like "nobody else has any problem signing this certification".

Another reason is you are dealing with an attorney who very well understands exactly what they are doing and why. This person knows that the entire reason they exist in a real estate closing is to shift the liability away from their client to anyone who is willing to accept the liability. This person is not your friend and is not trying to protect you. Their job is in fact contrary to your self interest.

Either way, you have a contract (written or unwritten) with the client and the attorney wishes to change that contract to the benefit of their client. Never, ever give away a benefit to the client without getting some sort of benefit in return.

Larry P

I use three certifications.

For normal run-of-the-mill boundaries it states: I, Kristopher Morgan do hereby state that this plat represents a boundary survey, made on the ground for someone, and that in accordance with the information and the instructions furnished me, same correctly represents the facts as found at the time of the survey. USE OF THIS SURVEY FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE OR BY OTHER PARTIES SHALL BE AT THEIR RISK AND THE UNDERSIGNED IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY LOSS RESULTING THEREFROM. IF THIS PLAT IS NOT SIGNED IN PALE BLUE INK AND THE SEAL PRESENT IN CRIMPED FORM, IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AN UNLICENSED COPY AND PRESUMED TO CONTAIN ALTERED OR UNAUTHORIZED MATERIAL.

For a TSPS Cat 1, which I know going in, I tell them that "A" I will only use the certification as promulgated by the standards, otherwise it's not that survey and "B" I will not add "successors and assigns".

For an ALTA, see the TSPS explanation.

Typically, for us, it's not hard to figure out when they're gonna want one of the big boy certifications and I typically jump everyone, go straight to the title attorney, and get that knocked out, even before I make a working sketch. They all understand it going in and no one is blindsided.

I have had the occasional title company request, from time to time, that I change my certification. I typically refuse unless I misspelled something. I had one tell me that Chicago title wouldn't accept my certification and that I HAD to change it. After I finally got to the guy at Chicago title, he told me that he would prefer that there be some verbiage in there about encroachments. We settled on adding "made on the ground for someone, and that there are no conflicts, protrusions, or intrusions, except as shown hereon, and that in accordance...". The title company was PISSED when I jumped there head. The title attorney with Chicago title was super cool and that lady was let go shortly thereafter.

I hate being told what to do.

I've had experiences similar to Kris's. There is quite a difference between dealing with attorneys and dealing with their underlings.

The underlings can only get as far as, "We need this signed." It's useless to try to discuss things with them. Sometimes it takes several days of turning them down before you get to an attorney.

The attorneys are well able to understand why you might not want to sign a particular certification. But as Larry P says, it's often their job to try to get you to sign it anyway, especially if they represent a lender.

They also understand what your legal position is--usually you have no obligation whatever to sign, especially if your survey proposal mentions what kind of certification will be used. Once they know that you also know that, they're not hard to deal with.

By certifications I meant specific entities certified to.
Its common around here to list the entities relying on the survey, see #4 below.

My original question was, when the request for these certs. come in weeks after the survey was released and you we have to pull the file and add them to the maps and replot the maps, save them ect. I really feel like charging for this, but...

We do this list in the following way:

CERTIFIED EXCLUSIVELY TO:
Then list the approved entities, if its more than usual or not a party listed below, I either reject it or charge more for it.

I'm sure its not true, but it could limit your liability by writing these entities down in this way or at least its worth a try.

My typical boundary certification is :
The undersigned surveyor hereby certifies that this map was made from an actual field survey completed on November 22, 2013, using the references and evidence shown hereon.

CODE OF PRACTICE
FOR
LAND SURVEYS

New York State Association
of Professional Land Surveyors
Adopted October 1966
Seventh Revision: July 18, 1997

"4. Certifications on this boundary survey map signify that the map was prepared in accordance with the current existing Code of Practice for Land Surveys adopted by the New York State Association of Professional Land Surveyors, Inc. The certification is limited to persons for whom the boundary survey map is prepared, to the title company, to the governmental agency, and to the lending institution listed on this boundary survey map.

5. The certifications herein are not transferable."

Well, as noted above, if you agreed to certify in your contract, then you can't charge more for something you left out. I assume you did not agree to certify, so charge for the time at the normal hourly rate. And, I also must assume from your post that you did not contract to certify to the NYSAPLS code. So, I would charge extra for that and do any necessary additional work to make sure the survey meets that code (additional work includes merely studying the map to make sure all necessary wording is on it). My surveys exceed that code in some ways but may not comply with it in some mundane other ways. I've seen surveys certified to that code that in fact don't meet it in minor ways, but if you certify to it and the survey misses something in it, then you are liable. It sounds to me like you are not yet using written contracts. You should consider it if you are not. If you are using written contracts, then include language about certifications and when it will cost more to add them.

I guess I still don't understand. If you performed the field work and the research to the acceptable standards, then why wouldn't you be able to stand behind your work? It sounds as if you are willing to "certify" the boundary survey was good for attorney A, but should not be relied upon by attorney B.

Am I missing something here?

Further, you can't unring a bell. So once a version of the plat leaves the office which has been certified, shouldn't it be considered "certified"?

Did you or did you not:
Perform the field work?
Show all visible etc etc.... At the time?
Perform the necessary research to come to a conclusion at the time?
Blah blah blah whatever the point of the survey was, show the building, the setbacks, whatever.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make, I understand the plat originally left the office without the statements of certification. OK. Maybe you didn't perform the work to a certain standard. That's ok. But if you did do the work originally, then why wouldn't you have just certified it that day? Are you too wishy washy to stand behind your own work? You didn't want the "liability" of putting a plat out there, so you did not certify it originally?

I say add those darn cert statement and eat the "cost" of adding the block, plotting, and making the prints.

Sorry, my two cents. I hereby certify my opinion.

The original maps do leave the office with the standard boundary certification on them. But, its the call back two weeks later to add the "excusive list" and then you have to resend the maps.

Duane I do use contracts for larger projects, but the smaller ones I do not. The only problem I really ever have are the added list of certifications. Easy to clear up.

Thanks