BLM establishing double monuments

"A private surveyor did not accept the SSO brass cap at the Center and set his own 0.36' away."

I don't understand how anyone can does something like that and think it's OK...

If' I'm not mistaken, isn't a set monument that is recovered supposed to govern, right or wrong, unless fraudulent? I mean 0.36'???

I am starting to understand the PLSS system, Lucas's comments, and the problem with pin cushions in public land states. I just can't understand how it's perpetuated like this though.

I do know that double monuments may be necessary on township lines, or even within sections, but that's for opposite sides of the lines, NOT monumenting the same point!

I am with you foggy, hard to understand the thinking of a surveyor that places his monument a finger length distance away from an existing one!

Keith

This is disturbing to say the least.

It seems to me that the person in charge of setting the second monuments simply didn't know what they were doing or made some incorrect interpretation some where.

In Oregon the county surveyor is charged with setting and or reestablishing PLSS corners and they do a dang good job at it. I don't know of any double monuments.

J.Penry - can you email me those pictures? Email is in profile.

I have seen the BLM accept a fence corner and then later set
a capped monument. This happened in Missouri. There are a bunch
of rednecks in the Missouri State Office (DNR) who despise the BLM
with a passion.

J. Penry,

I know that the BLM former practice of setting an iron post alongside the found original stone monument is causing concern now with the precise measuring ability that exists now and did not exist back when this practice was being used.

I recall that this practice was in the 50's (and probably before) and discussions came about that determined it may not be a good idea.

One needs to remember that a link or two in the 50's was close enough and if in fact the iron post did not precisely hover over the exact point on the stone monument, nobody much cared about it.

Later years it was shown that the practice was confusing and the more the measuring abilities increased, the more it became confusing. So, the practice was stopped.

I do know too, that many of these iron posts were buried alongside the stone monument at a slant so that the brass cap is actually over the corner point and again, a finger length distance was not in the minds of the surveyor.

Remember, that monument that consisted of an iron post and a stone monument, was close enough to build a fence, plow the field and build a house nearby. Nobody was building a piano!

And, unless you are beside a sky scraper, that distance is probably still good enough!

Keith

A private surveyor did not accept the SSO brass cap at the Center and set his own 0.36' away.

Maybe the private guy located the BLM corners for control and came up with the 0.36';-)

> <> So, guess which monument many surveyors end up using?
>

😉

Civil Servants are people too, they make mistakes just like the rest of us... in the creation of directions/standards, and the execution of them too.

In my first year if being licensed I went to a buddy's place, very very rough country, to help him figure out what he had purchased. I had done my research and found nothing but the 1880's GLO plat.
Using a Quad I was able to get kind of close and found a newish 2" pipe with BLM cap, properly stamped! Cool! I flagged it up and walked down the line towards the road and found another set as a line point... Cool! DONE!
A few days later I stopped at the field office and asked about the missing plat for the new monuments. It was there and it was a dozy! Many monuments set over most of the Township. BUT, it was "in process" and more than 5 years old. I god an advance copy and called it good.
A year or so later my buddy informed me his neighbors had built fences around most of his property between those monuments.
Another year or so later I found that the plat was !!Not Accepted!! and new monuments were set hundreds of feet from the others (and the new fences). None of the adjoiners were aware that BLM had made an error or that it had been corrected. Not Cool!
---
More recently I found one of those double BLM monuments... 2" pipe with BLM cap up about a foot or so, and the original 1" with LS cap up about 6"... the BLM notes said "replaced found monument and buried it along side"... I wonder what other shortcuts the BLM field Crew took on that job. It kind of makes me wonder... Is the BML monument a witness? Or was it actually a replacement? Sure can't trust what went on record.

I do remember many "discussions" with Bob Myer, Missouri State Surveyor, back in our office in the BLM Division of Cadastral Surveyor and it usually centered around surveying by the Missouri State Law.

There are probably issues yet that are not in agreement between the BLM land surveyors and the land surveyors in the Missouri State Office (DNR).

We did emphasize the our lawyers (Dept. of Interior Solicitors) did not go into State Court to defend federal surveys that did not follow State Law.

It is an issue that probably is still debated within and outside of BLM on exactly when and if, State Law is to be used by a BLM land surveyor. I think it comes down to the fact that if a parcel of PRIVATE land was subdivided and subsequently a federal agency purchased a part of that parcel, then the appropriate State Law should be followed.

But, there are circumstances that were debated about where State Law is not applicable, such as the restoration of a lost section corner. And, I don't know the answer to that.

Keith

> Later years it was shown that the practice was confusing and the more the measuring abilities increased, the more it became confusing. So, the practice was stopped.
>

Keith: when do you think that practice was supposed to be stopped? I think it was still actually done as recently as 5 or 10 years ago.

Peter

PS: I agree about the measuring thing, but we all need to remember that values increase and people do build to the line and they see it.

Wow - what a total lack of comprehension!!!!!!!!!!! Incomprehensible...

Thanks Keith. That's a pretty good explanation on what might have happened and most likely did in many cases.

I've always wondered out on our refuge why there there was a brass cap set to the side of a stone. Sometimes the stone would be buried upside down so you expected the brass cap to mark the corner but sometimes not. Both looked just like the real deal.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense considering the times and terrain involved.

But we can measure a whole lot better now so it can get confusing at times.

Here is a picture someone had shared either here or on another site awhile back. (My apologies for using the photo without proper recognition). I believe the discussion was that the 1977 BLM monument came after the private surveyor monument. The BLM accepted the existing monument and placed their own next to it, albeit higher than the true monument.

J.Penry,

If in fact the BLM set that monument AFTER the private monument, they were dead wrong in their setting that monument.

Does not make a difference if it was simply set alongside an accepted monument, or if it was set at a more precise measurement!

Keith

When I worked for BLM in the early 70's through the late 80's (Oregon-Calif-Wyoming)the practice was to reference out the corner to be remonumented, whether it be a stone or pipe, dig it up, set the BLM monument (edit: at the original corner position) and deposit or bury the original monument alongside. Sometimes in shallow soil you couldn't get the original "buried" unless you laid it down. Often times it would be set upside down so there was no confusion as to which monument controlled.

Whether or not a monument was replaced with a BLM IP depended on a variety of factors. (edit; If the monument was on Govt. land and was subject to being lost due to deterioration it was probably replaced with a more substantial monument.) If it was a private IP on private land and was used for control and was in good shape (not rusted to the point of being lost) we didn't remonument it.

I've never seen or heard of anyone setting a monument "alongside" another one in recent times, though I know it was common, as Keith said, until sometime in the 50's.
Also, the field notes usually tell you if the BLM monument was set "at the corner point" of alongside.
DJJ

Peter

Obviously, I don't know if the practice, by some, was still happening 5 or 10 years ago, but I hope not!

The error of their thinking was acknowledged years ago and I would presume that the practice ended. But, there is always the possibility that an existing mark on an outcrop of some sort was perpetuated with a iron post and brasscap and now looks like two corners? Hopefully the field notes will explain the situation.

And I am sure there are circumstances where the BLM field notes are not being reviewed?

Keith

When I worked for E. C. Lenhart (a G.L.O.cadastral surveyor in the 1930's & 1940's) in 1959 & 1960, he said that they were instructed at that time to bury any recovered stone or other monument upsidedown at the base or alongside the base of the brass cap monument set by them. Also, in the 1960's when I worked for the Bureau of Reclamation surveying the boundaries of Glendo Reservoir, all the Townships in the area that were surveyed by Jim Minnie for Glendo Dam and Reservoir area, his new brass cap monuments were set alongside the original stone monument and the stone was still properly oriented regarding the markings. So, which monument occupied the original position? Theoretically, the stone is still the monument for the corner position. Leaves a lot of questions regarding this.

Charles

I know that by the time that I was in the field, (mid 60's) that the practice had been stopped in the BLM Montana State Office.

And of course, Jim Minnie was in the field earlier than that during the time that the practice was to set the iron post alongside the stone monument.

Just a side note, Jim Minnie hired me as a cadastral draftsman, back in 1962 or maybe it was 1963.

Keith

Find this crap all the time. Clean it up and move on. Research the record and don't put the cart before the horse. One corner one monument....

Pablo

That is out in California City in the Mojave Desert.

It looks silly but it helps to consider the situation. You are in the middle of hundreds of thousands of acres of bare desert land.

I found it on Google Earth one time.

California City was a huge pipe dream development out in the desert in the 1960s. There are miles of subdivision plats out there in the middle of nowhere. There is a little built up part in the middle but most of it is dirt tracks at best.

I found one last week. The monument was a 1-1/2" iron pipe in a stone mound. The BLM post and cap is next to it (they touch). The difference is under 2 tenths and it is rural timberland. We aren't splitting hairs out there. I don't have the BLM notes yet. Most surveyors come along and set up on the cap; I assume that anyway from the 15 maps that show the BLM monument as found. I mean no one admits to doing that on a public forum but holy hell we are talking about large acreages where what matters is whose tree is it?