An Original Monument, That Is Not Per The Record ?
That might be a prima facia case against it's being an original monument to the corner. It is definitely not within tolerances allowed by statute. There is apparently no evidence that it has been relied on. To make sure it does not get further moved it should be secured to a lower elevation. If whomever set it comes looking for it again, he will be able to find it. Meanwhile the record monument is not at the record corner, which needs to be monumented such that future surveyors have no reason to look for it far and wide.
Had the original surveyor filed a corner record with ties to fixed objects which can be found and in agreement with the missplacement, then you have a totally different story. However, as I read it the only apparent ties are record bearings and distances to the other extant corner monuments.
A prudent surveyor might look in a 10' circle around all the other corners, just in case it is a "Total Whack Job".
Paul in PA
famous last words...
"This project should be really simple!"
An Original Monument, That Is Not Per The Record ?
I don't think the neighbor moved the pipe or even knows about it. That's why I think I need to talk to him. Most people, if you explain that it was supposed to be over here, somebody made a mistake and put it over there, will want the mistake corrected. The neighbor could dig in his heels, though and claim that it's ripened into the property corner. It wasn't set where the surveyor intended it to be set, but it's presumably been there for eight years and may have achieved status as the corner. If it was 0.75' from the calc position, I wouldn't think twice about holding it, so it's hard for me to reject it just because it's further off. But I didn't post about it here because I know the answer, it's because I want some input and I appreciate everybody's ideas.
I'm convinced I've found 3 of the four monuments the surveyor found and based his survey on, the only one whacked is the one he set, and according to the County Surveyor, that's not surprising.
famous last words...
those words are like a triple jinx!
An Original Monument, That Is Not Per The Record ?
I agree you should talk to the property owner.
It is just basic common courtesy to at least talk to them first. This doesn't mean anything they say will be relevant but at least you let them talk to you. Who knows, they might know something.
An Original Monument, That Is Not Per The Record ?
Do talk to them, but ask them where they believe the boundary line or corner to be, and why they believe so. This way the owner tells what they understand and know, and you don't prejudice their statements.
Ask if they know of any prior surveys and monuments that exist.
I'm with Kris
If I was in your predicament, I'd leave them in, show them on my survey, record it and leave it at that.
That's exactly what we do, and generally, that's the end of it. If the owners want to accept the long standing monument, it's fairly easy to do a lot line adjustment of some sort.
I'm with Kris
I'm not pulling the tagged monument, I know that much. The question is do I set my own monument where I believe it was intended to go 8 years ago and possibly get into a slander of title case if the judge thinks an existing f-ed up monument trumps the math. Believe me, I've seen it happen. Even if the current neighbor is fine with me setting the new monument, as somebody said earlier, a new owner a couple of years from now might even have the standing to bring a case against me, couldn't they?
I'm with Kris and Radar
I with you guys, well stated Kris.
The idea of removing someone Else's monument does not fly with me, totally inappropriate and would get a licensed surveyor in trouble in this State.
You would think Steve would've learned by now...
Those words will jinx a Survey for sure! 😉
“I never pull corners, or things that purport to be corners, ever.” “If I was in your predicament, I'd leave them in, show them on my survey, record it and leave it at that.” “I'm not pulling the tagged monument, I know that much.” “I ain't pullin it though, unless it's mine.” “but yeah, def. wouldn't pull the wayward monument” “I would never pull a pin either”
I agree with the choir. Since the bogus pin has been in the ground for 8 years, who’s to say that owners haven’t (1) relied on the it to lay out drain fields or bury irrigation pipe or utilities or kinfolk or whatever goes into the ground in California and isn’t readily discernable to the naked eye or (2)written an easement that begins at the bogus iron and dead ends way off yonder at a section line with no ending tie to another corner?
I’ve actually seen this one before – an ingress/egress easement in the oil fields that called for an iron pipe P.O.B. that turned out to be 27 feet from the “real” iron pipe. Description ran for a 1/4 mile with no other monument calls and dead-ended at property line. The road didn't fit, though. Running the courses from the “real” pipe put the road about 27 feet north of the easement. Rancher then said his dad wrote the easement long ago and then recalled that after dad died a surveyor put some new “stobs where they belonged”. Buzzed around in the middle of the road 27 feet north of the “new stob” and found the second, bogus pipe and it all made sense and the road was within the easement. The bogus iron controlled the easement and without it, a lot of money would have been shoveled into lawyers pockets.
Fortunately you are in a recording state so even if you do pull the monument you can show a tie from your new corner to perpetuate the location of the erroneous one and any surveyor that works in this area afterwards will know what you did.
I'm with Kris
"The question is do I set my own monument where I believe it was intended to go 8 years ago..."
Yes. I believe that is our responsibility. I consider that showing the location of the other monument is full disclosure of the facts to the public as well as the interested parties.
Some of the things I think of are: Have the surrounding owners been there since the survey or were there previous owners that may have moved the monument? You're there on the ground and have to decide whether the monument's been disturbed or not, but depending on the ground it could be easy to move a monument without leaving evidence. I had a monument that was 5 ft out, but found the right size hole at the correct position. Sometimes people move monuments but forget about the hole they leave behind and possibly old ribbon. 7.5 feet can also be evidence that the monument was moved, not set wrong.
I wouldn't pull the monument, unless you're sure it's been disturbed. However, if I were arguing to a judge to not use the monument (if I decided it hadn't been disturbed) in addition to no reliance I'd say there was "gross error", so gross that it resulted in one of the parcels not meeting zoning regulations. Sometimes a judge will look beyond the rule to the reasoning behind the rule to do equity.
Also, I have put in my plat narrative that I discussed acceptance or rejection with other named surveyors, (one of which was the county surveyor). That was on the use of fence corners as evidence of the original corners. That would at least make your position stronger if the other surveyors agreed with you. Make sure you ask them before you put their names on the plat though.
It sure doesn't look disturbed, but in the winter, it might be easier to pull it and re-drive it without damaging it. Good idea to look for a hole. I have never personally had anything to do with this surveyor before, but I had heard things and the County Surveyor (well, not the CS, but one of his minions) said he never should have been surveying and said he had to bite his tongue to keep from saying more.
Did you catch the part of my story where the CS guy said he'd pull it and put a new one in where it was supposed to go? Kind of a weird thing for him to say, I thought. Before I tell my realtor client about this and talk to the neighbor, I need to go back and locate this big old massive brick barbeque because that's the first thing the realtor's going to ask me about when I talk to him. Just looking at it, he thought maybe the property line was going to end up going through it and it might. Whether or not the pin is the corner might make a difference on that too.
It's too bad the guy has a bad reputation, if he had a good reputation that would support the monument being moved. The other thought I had is which way is the monument off. Is it off in a direction that a landowner would move it to gain more land? So many things to consider, sometimes your gut (experience) just tells you what happens. If it was someone working for the C.S. who made the comment about pulling it I bet they'd change their story if asked to sign something or be quoted.
Good luck in your decision. Remember there really isn't any bad decisions, just poorly documented ones.
