Part RANT, part serious “ethics” question:
PLEASE...DON'T anyone take ANY of this crap personally, these are GENERAL observation, that for the most part are based on YEARS of hearing, reading, and dealing with things that come across my desk...AND YES, I am guilty too!
OKAY...it's just my own 2-bit old guy opinion, but I really believe that “we” (as surveyors) are becoming slaves to magic black boxes, mysterious software and various geodetic MODELS that we [often] don't adequately understand. Is this REALLY ethical?
We are using equipment that many of us don't grasp the limitations (or sometimes even the potential) of, DATA that we often don't understand the nature of, and MODELS that are completely over most of our heads, ALL of which we manipulate using SOFTWARE that many of us are unable to even TEST in any meaningful way.
We “use” State Plane Coordinates for applications for which they are NOT particularly well suited, so we “modify” them inorder to minimize some of the undesirable effects of this misapplication that was our fault to begin with. The result is NOT State Plane Coordinates at all, but some twisted spatial paradigm that we hope/trust is “good enough” for the project at hand.
We will run a digital level between a couple of first-order Bench Marks a mile or two apart, miss the record NAVD88 height difference by a tenth or two, run our leveling back to the beginning Bench Mark, “close” for less than a hundredth, and ASSUME that the record heights are WRONG or that one of the Bench Marks has been disturbed.
We will spend ten thousand plus dollars on a Total Station, but don't own a $10 thermometer, or a $100-$200 barometer. Some folks have NEVER been to a Calibration Base Line, and some states have let the ones that they had be destroyed, or languish without re-observation for decades.
Some of us ONLY know how to “calibrate” (our RTK) to existing data points, and then wonder why the Total Station returns DIFFERENT numbers than the OTHER magic box, or why we can't even duplicate last weeks work with this weeks work, because the data collector crashed, and we did a new (but different) calibration this week.
SO...we mix good data with not-so-good (and sometimes really crappy) data and HOPE (or is it TRUST) that our mega-buck integrated software package will magically sort it all out for us (wow...look at all of those decimal places dude!).
Top that off by mixing the “PLSS Datum,” old yet venerable and spatially precise city/county systems, and/or Railroad/Highway data into the mix, and many folks can't separate the apples and oranges, from the pears and cumquats. All too often, the fruit salad becomes a bucket of [spatial] S%%T.
Oh yeah...”MEASURING is the EASIEST thing that we do!”
Of course “monuments CONTROL” (I'm NOT implying otherwise), but this IS the 21st Century, and I believe that our clients (and the public in general) ASSUME that we REALLY know what we are doing.
Rant over (sorry...it's been one of THOSE weeks),
Loyal
Spend a quick 30 seconds with the schonstedt and assume the record monument is gone instead of pondering where it might be or why I can't find it. (Not me, just my observations of others).
HURRAH. TRUTH HAS BEEN PRESENTED.
Amen, Brother Loyal. You are a master hammer-weilder as you hit a whole bunch of nails directly on the head with one swing. It will be fun to watch the comments.
Yet we still hear arguments against a degree requirement for licensure.
magic eight ball says, 'this will probably not change much in the future, regrettably'
That was good Loyal. Well stated.
In spite of all that, we surveyors are more qualified than anybody else to perform those duties. Some are just a bit more qualified than others.
I think it is safe to suggest that most of us recognize when we are pushing the envelope of "short cuts" in order to make the proverbial buck. Again, some are just a bit more "qualified" to make those calls. We rationalize it in the name of "project scope".
Those black majic boxes are cool, but personally I liked the world better when it was flat. My plumb bob never failed me, but that inclined plane certainly did.
...with all that said, the monument still marks the corner.
I would just like for someone to explain to me how you can get sub-centimeter accuracy with VRS GPS under "canopy". I just don't trust that magic box under canopy.
"...with all that said, the monument still marks the corner."
The sad part is that probably more "surveyors" would complete your statement with "..... uh, well, only if it is within my phony-baloney, made-up "margin of error" of the measurements/coordinates that I have computed from the legal description/plat and entered into my magical black box ......"
I will be the first to admit that I don't fully and completely understand all the mumbo-jumbo measurement/gravity projection thing-a-ma-jigs that Loyal tries to explain to us, but I'm trying.
I researched the required classes of a "to remain nameless" 4 yr. surveying degree program last night. There were a bunch of math courses (including calculus), courses on state plane coords, balancing traverses, theory and use of GPS and other magic boxes, technical writing, and a host of other great and necessary educational topics, but, there was only ONE three credit course on boundary law AND description writing. Yep, THREE whole credits in ONE course to cover what am finding to be the VAST majority of the work many of us do every day!!!!!
Yes, higher education is great, but then again, it all depends on WHAT educatin' is actually done in the classroom.
When I was about 20...
we got our first data collector..o.k it was an H.P 48 with tds software...
My father sat me down and said 'I don't care what that thing (data collector) tells you...water doesn't flow up hill!!!!'
I agree I don't fully understand GPS works, I have a more than basic understanding (still trying to get my head around space-time though).
I also don't fully understand how the robot tracks my prism pole.
But I use the equipment.
Todays modern cars are computers on wheels, do you fully understand how the car runs?you still drive one don't you?
I think education is lacking in the surveying world. Its far cheaper to have a "tech" just 'do what the black box tell you to do', which I think is a biiiiiig mistake.
Neither do I...scary stuff.
Well said Loyal.
But to qualify for a genuine Rant you should use more caps.
😉
DJJ
Well, if you know how to do everything under the particular professional umbrella, it probably needs to be part of another profession rather than seperate and distinct.
But there is a real lack of consensus on just what should be included, and how much of each, in a surveying/geomatics program. It's kind of a circular argument because most professions are led and expanded by college programs, especially the graduate programs. In surveying there is a lack of these programs and leadership because of a lack of necessity to attend them. And yet they are needed in order to lead the expansion and refinement that would in turn lead to the necessity to get a degree.
This is trouble. The engineers lobby in NY claims the only thing we can do is boundary work because there is no education background in relation to anything else. It's assumed boundary law can be learned on the job but scientific stuff can't be. And because most have no science type degree (or any degree) then our definition law can't contain any other tasks but boundary. Now, the lawyers might get a bit miffed at the implication that law is easy and science is hard. But, I think the engineers are after the geospatial market. And they will get it if we're not careful.
>
> Of course “monuments CONTROL” (I'm NOT implying otherwise), but this IS the 21st Century, and I believe that our clients (and the public in general) ASSUME that we REALLY know what we are doing.
>
> Rant over (sorry...it's been one of THOSE weeks),
> Loyal
Of course monuments "control" but when you state your measured distance between monuments vs. "record".....maybe you should be able to measure it right.
Good rant, and I am with you 100%. It was sort of true even when they came out with edm's but it is worse now. I am not sure you should be able to use GPS without some education and possibly being able to pass a competency test.
Relax Loyal..........
It all works out in the end.......
..........doesn't it?
It is endemic within our current social system
Trust the black box.
My 10 year-old grandson cannot tell you his home telephone number. He must push the right buttons on his cellphone to get the answer. The answers are all in the little black box. Trust the black box.
Two days ago, my Total Station told me the distance to the prism was 92.xx feet. I knew it was more like 36 feet. The wind started to blow a bit, moving that one danged tree leaf out of the way, and then reasonable results were provided. What if I weren't bright enough to grasp the fact that the distance couldn't have been 92.xx feet?
I have a clock that is correct twice each day because it doesn't run. My computer and my cellphone are two minutes different. I have no idea which one is wrong.....or if both of them are wrong.
I have absolutely no clue today on how to determine the hyperbolic cosine of an angle. Lord help me if I need to determine the square root of a five digit number. I can't remember the last time I manually determined the area of an odd-shaped tract.
Swipe your magic money card in the little slot thingy. If you ever look at a statement recording the purchase, will you know for sure that the correct amount was debited/credited.
It is endemic within our current social system
Kind of makes you wonder how this county ever got built, let alone secure and wealthy done by a people with a second or third grade education or no education at all. Been living from the wealth they produced for some time now, bout used it up. The old timers that knew how, are gone, the ones who listened to there foolishness are dying off, what are we gonna do, the new ways have proven to be folly, we would be in trouble if we couldn't divert our focus from hunger to the gaming screen. Might even be hunger riots without out little hand held brains.
jud.
Jevad11
Which one?
appllies to records research as well
Finding out as much as possible about the "history" of the land being surveyed seems to be too much effort for some as well. A quick search (on line in most cases), print only the current deed for the subject tract and bingo/bango the research is complete.
Yeah right.
Loyal:
Many old timers in the surveying profession learned to perform alot of those black box things without and before there ever were black boxes. The old timers learned how to do these things the old way, which involved actually understanding how and why things were done a certain way.
Now, it's just push a button and get an answer. It's no wonder that the younger generation that only learned the black box way, hasn't got a clue when things don't work. Whose fault is it?
An Example: Has anyone ever showed them how to calculate a traverse and then perform a compass adjustment, and then determine the adjusted bearings and distances....longhand using a manual calculator, sine/cosine book, and tangent/cotangent book? Maybe if they did a bunch of traverses & adjustments, they would better understand how it all works and better appreciate what they have to use now.
How about chaining(taping)down a line while getting line from an instrumentman?
Or performing a small Least Squares Adjustment, longhand? OK, maybe that's a little extreme, but you get the idea.
I'm beginning to think that it's the old timers fault for not passing along our vast amount of hard earned knowledge.
What do you think?