ALTA standards

It kinda sounds like your client was told by someone they need an ALTA for whatever reason and don't know what it really is. It sounds good "I want an ALTA survey" doesn't it?

I ran into this once- I nudged the Client to check with the Lender and a Table A Item checklist was forthcoming. I'd suggest touching base with the Lender and other parties in the deal to confirm.

Chuck

Not the norm, but I have done a couple that just wanted the basic ALTA requirements without Table A.

In theory, Items 1 and possibly 14, seem to be things that would be included in ANY survey.

There rest are (as described) "optional". Indeed, on a vacant parcel out in the middle of nowhere, most of the Table A items wouldn't apply anyway.

If he doesn't need them, you can still do a survey that meets the ALTA/ASCM standard.

what dan said. not normal, but i have done it. they have probably been told they need an alta, but have no idea why or what it is. send them table a, let them choose what they want, if anything. if they choose nothing treat it as a standard survey with the minimum technical standards of the alta regs and your state and slap an alta certification on it.

I like the way the new standards have it specified that the surveyor gets the title work to do the survey, not the other way around. In the past it seemed that the title companies were taking the 'easy way out' and assuming that a surveyor does title work. I have had to patiently explain that fallacy to many banks and even title companies. The idea of saying ALTA Survey and getting something better than normal is all that most people have in mind with no idea or regard for what it takes to produce one much less sign it. They are usually the ones that grudgingly request a surveyor to 'go pull tape and draw something up'.

The minimum standards are in the main body of the standards.

The Table A items are “…optional survey responsibilities and specifications…” They are to be “…negotiated between the surveyor and the client…”

ALTA/ACSM Land Title Surveys (Land Title Surveys or LTRs for short) are BOUNDARY SURVEYS that include significant information regarding easements, title issues, potential unwritten rights issues and any other items that could affect title to the subject property and the locations of those items. The end product of the survey is a plat that shows the spatial relationship between those elements.

Note, too, that these are minimum standards. Your state may have statutes that set the standard of care for the survey higher than the one imposed by the LTR standards. The highest standards carry the day.

Previously, unless the client was sophisticated enough to have dealt with LTRs before, I have found that I get requests with every box checked or a completely blank Table A.

This is an opportunity to educate your client. If they still do not want any of the items in Table A, don’t provide them! Why would you want to take on additional liability without compensation and against the clients wishes?

An ALTA with no Table A is basically the boundary with easements (written and unwritten), the buildings, and whatever is within 5 feet of the boundary (evidence of occupation lines). If the purpose of the survey is for financing alone that is frequently sufficient.

An ALTA wqith no Table A items is the same as a standard syrvet that meets tour state's Minimum Technical Standards. It's just that the client has to provide you with the paperwork from the Title Insurance Commitment Report.

> An ALTA wqith no Table A items is the same as a standard syrvet that meets tour state's Minimum Technical Standards. It's just that the client has to provide you with the paperwork from the Title Insurance Commitment Report.

Not exactly. We're not required to locate buildings.

Please review Section 5D of the Standards:

Based on the normal standard of care, the location of all buildings on the surveyed property shown perpendicular to the nearest perimeter boundary line(s) and expressed to the appropriate degree of precision.

Ian - The ALTA Standards require that the buildings be located and dimensioned whether the client cares or not. I think Tommy was saying that a non-ALTA survey does not require that they be shown.

I don't do a whole lot of ALTA's but I get the feeling on most of them that I do that most of the information that I so painstakingly collect and report doesn't matter a hill of beans to anybody involved in the real estate transaction. Why would a lender have any interest in the route of all the underground utilities in an existing developed site? Why would a buyer care about the exact distances from the property lines to buildings that are clearly inside the boundaries, and why would he care about most of the Table A info unless he was going to use the survey for design purposes in which case why wouldn't he just order a design-level topo?

I don't do a whole lot of ALTA's but I get the feeling on most of them that I do that most of the information that I so painstakingly collect and report doesn't matter a hill of beans to anybody involved in the real estate transaction.
Actually, the positional tolerance is no more stringent than that for a decent topo survey. The point of the exercise is to graphically depict the site in sufficient detail that a lender in Stuttgart, a Title Insurer in San Francisco and attorneys in Dallas and Atlanta could easily understand the conditions onsite at a hotel in Los Angeles without having to all meet at the site.

Before World War II, if you were looking to borrow money to build a factory, it was very likely in your home town. The money came from a banker who probably had known you for years and likely even loaned money against the property two or three times. Since everyone involved in the transaction knew each other and the property, extensive documentation was unnecessary.

After the Korean War, financing began to get much more global in nature. That’s when it started getting interesting. In the early 1960’s the ALTA approached the ACSM to develop a set of standards for a uniform plat regardless of whether it was surveyed in Platteville, New York or California City, California.

Why would a lender have any interest in the route of all the underground utilities in an existing developed site?

Because utilities are often NOT located in the easements so painstakingly created for them. Huge issues can develop when a building can’t be put where the buyer wanted because there is a 24” storm drain line directly under the foundation. (Real world example of a LTR is resurveyed last week!)

Why would a buyer care about the exact distances from the property lines to buildings that are clearly inside the boundaries,
Title issues and setback restrictions. Not to mention figuring out whether there’s space for the proposes truck wash. (Again, a real world example.)

and why would he care about most of the Table A info unless he was going to use the survey for design purposes in which case why wouldn't he just order a design-level topo?All sorts of reasons!

I usually counsel my clients to order TWO products: the Land Title Survey and a separate Design Survey. The Land Title Survey is for, well, title issues. The Design Survey is for, am, project design!

> I don't do a whole lot of ALTA's but I get the feeling on most of them that I do that most of the information that I so painstakingly collect and report doesn't matter a hill of beans to anybody involved in the real estate transaction. Why would a lender have any interest in the route of all the underground utilities in an existing developed site? Why would a buyer care about the exact distances from the property lines to buildings that are clearly inside the boundaries, and why would he care about most of the Table A info unless he was going to use the survey for design purposes in which case why wouldn't he just order a design-level topo?

Gee, how short-sighted can one be?

It isn't the information itself (is the building 20 feet or 19 feet 10 inches from the lot line?), but rather the consequences if these things are undisclosed prior to the closing that matters.

Many ALTA/ACSM Survey related transactions are multi-million dollar DEVELOPMENT deals. Would you want to lend out millions of dollars for a property only to find out too late that it couldn't be utilized in the intended manner?

All those big bucks could go right down a drain if a sewer is located under the location of a planned new warehouse (no pun intended).

If you wanted to buy a house and expand it, wouldn't you need to know if any expansion is even possible prior to purchase?

Maybe you didn't read my whole post before you copied and pasted it. Obviously there is a need for design-level topographic surveying for design purposes. Since an ALTA Survey is mostly intended as a product for title insurance purposes, all I'm saying is that sometimes even the basic ALTA requirements and certainly a lot of the Table A Items go beyond what is really necessary for lender to lend or a buyer to buy a piece of property. Haven't you ever seen an ALTA Survey request where they just checked all the boxes and you know they don't have a clue what they're asking for or why they would need it?

Smart developers look at an ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey as more than just a box to check off on a closing officers list.

Knowing whether a design is even feasible could affect the outcome of the deal, hence knowing BEFOREHAND is desirable. At least eight of the Table A items relate to potential deal-killers for a developer.

Developer from out of state learns of a vacant 100 acre parcel where he wants to build a warehouse complex. The ALTA survey becomes his insurance that he will be able to build what he wants with a degree of certainty, and liability on the part of others if he cannot. A properly ordered and properly performed ALTA/survey tells him much more about the property than simply title issues.

Why order a simple lot line survey and later find out about title and/or physical issues?

Angelo - I don't think we really disagree about anything. Certainly an ALTA Survey that contains details that are actually pertinent to the plans a buyer has for the property is of great value. If I was buying a vacant piece of property for a new shopping center, the locations of easements, available utility connections and a lot of the other Table A stuff would be highly useful. What I question is how much a full-blown ALTA Survey is useful to a buyer or lender on a fully developed property.

Got it....I see your point.

I guess because most of the ALTAs I've done have been related to future development, I stress that aspect of the survey.

We get an ALTA order and the immediate reaction here is "What are they going to build there?"

But from an owner's point of view, since I'm buying the "Cadillac of Land Surveys", I'd want it to include every possible thing I can find out.