Looking at a boundary that has a small portion with a metes and bounds description, it runs between 3-4 miles along part of the south line of the boundary.
There was a description created from a survey executed in the 60's which was to trade land north and south of the described line. The bounds part of the description begins with a game fence then morphs into the north line of an ungraded road. Basically the description could have stopped with the bounds description but the surveyor added metes. A few monuments were recovered during what was basically an investigation back in the early 2000's but the landowners didn't wish to pursue "fixing" anything then. Clearly there was a typo, a blunder, something because the metes quickly diverge from the fence and this has made all the attorneys, gis guys (cause of course everyone can plot a deed with the "PLSS" and look at against the fence with Google or Bing) in a tizzy because the new ranch owners want to "fix" everything.
Trying to explain that that big game fence is the boundary called for in the description, the bearings and distances do not hold over it. They have been living with this boundary for 50 years now.
I can do a full blown survey with a ROS and a new description, they don't need to start transferring pieces back and forth, even if they could, which I doubt. The ownership really isn't in question.
Memorialize the fence (boundary) on a record of survey before it goes away. I agree there is no need to transfer anything, but it would be good to get the owners on record recognizing the boundary. The mechanisms for this vary widely by State. If it's not your thing get a real property attorney involved to do it right. If I had a nickel for every needless (oruseless) quit claim and quiet title action started by a Surveyor we could all retire...
I agree, the last thing they need to do is start quit claiming back and forth. They don't own on the other side no matter how the numbers plot up so why even bother.
I know how to "fix" it so the GIS guys and lawyers can relax. But I need them to agree to do it. Sometimes that's the difficult part. I had almost the same issue a year ago with a neighbor of the new landowner in a different location, so I think the new landowner will be happy to deal with this the same way.
I'm curious, what is your concern about quitclaims? I've heard this comment before but never understood it. Even if they didn't own the land in between, there'd be no one else around the make a claim to it, right? So what would be the problem? Not trying to question your judgement in any way, just trying to learn. And what solution would you use instead?
Thanks!
Thank you Mr. GIS for the referral.
roger_LS, post: 426221, member: 11550 wrote: I'm curious, what is your concern about quitclaims? I've heard this comment before but never understood it. Even if they didn't own the land in between, there'd be no one else around the make a claim to it, right? So what would be the problem? Not trying to question your judgement in any way, just trying to learn. And what solution would you use instead?
Thanks!
In some cases they don't accomplish anything. And here they don't have an issue with where the boundary is, you can walk it holding the description and see exactly where it is. It needs an updated survey, but why quit claim back and forth again the same piece that already was?
Brad Ott, post: 426225, member: 197 wrote: Thank you Mr. GIS for the referral.
Ha, actually I did get a nice job last year that way.....
This one is a much larger parcel, with an issue along the south line, should be fun overall, I've worked with this family before and they do it right, no question about that.
MightyMoe, post: 426228, member: 700 wrote: In some cases they don't accomplish anything. And here they don't have an issue with where the boundary is, you can walk it holding the description and see exactly where it is. It needs an updated survey, but why quit claim back and forth again the same piece that already was?
Sure, not needed here because you can get to the intent of the deed, but say they were conservative and wanted to clarify the deed, quitclaims wouldn't hurt, right?
The metes in deeds like that are important. 100 years from now the fence may be gone, but the metes will still put you in the right area. Obviously, that all goes out the window if there is an error in the metes.
An ROS would be great, because it gets correct metes into the record.
Quit claim does a few things. The biggest is implying that property is changing hands. The owners are now subject to the whims of the local planning department and State code relating to transfers of real property. Another biggie is the effect of quit claim deeds in general. They may prevent you from ever having an interest in something you may want to purchase or lien later.
It is quite likely that the leguslature or courts have given the folks in your State guidance on how to (and how not to) accomplish the cleanup. As long as it's not part of practicing law in your State its a good function for a Surveyor.
thebionicman, post: 426254, member: 8136 wrote:
It is quite likely that the leguslature or courts have given the folks in your State guidance on how to (and how not to) accomplish the cleanup. As long as it's not part of practicing law in your State its a good function for a Surveyor.
I'm not aware of any guidance here in ca, maybe someone else here knows. How is it accomplished in Idaho?
thebionicman, post: 426254, member: 8136 wrote: Another biggie is the effect of quit claim deeds in general. They may prevent you from ever having an interest in something you may want to purchase or lien later.
I find that surprising. I thought a quitclaim just gave up any rights you had at the time of that document, and would have no effect on future acquisitions.
Bill93, post: 426270, member: 87 wrote: I find that surprising. I thought a quitclaim just gave up any rights you had at the time of that document, and would have no effect on future acquisitions.
That is correct at least in California.
The Doctrine of After-acquired Title does not apply to Quit Claim Deeds which only transfer the title which the grantor had at the time of the Deed.
A Grant Deed transfers present and future title interests.
Most Quit Claims I've seen were used to simplify the process and reduce the list of possible heirs, partners and others that could make claim to having title to property when their share has very little monetary value and/or it is the cheaper route to end their claim.
Have had many a client that "had a guy" that traveled where needed to offer people money for them to sign Quit Claim deeds to land they did not even know their distant relatives once had interest in so he could get his developments started and completed and in his name.
When it comes to metes and bounds, properly worded with all the suitable information about adjoiners and limits of boundaries can be explained and the Grantor's intent is very clear.
Don't surprise me. In my part of the world "bounds" were so rarely used historically that even when found in descriptions few pay any attention. When I write up descriptions with bounds calls in then the local title companies think I'm from outer space. Almost everyone working in the survey, title and government land exchange business redoes every boundary every time. It's a real mess. The math doesn't fit together but they will never stop trying to make it so. The Utah Supreme Court has it absolutely right, real clear on old established boundaries. Few pay them any attention either!
Everybody knows the simple math. If you can't follow the metes you are considered some sort of idiot. It leads to chaos but hey, it's numbers everybody learned in grade school.
A prime example of the use of Quit Claim deeds occurs in Oklahoma. The Panhandle area was not opened for private ownership until 1907 via homesteading. In the past 110 years many of those quarter section homesteads have never left the family. Some have never officially been passed down from the original patent holder, so all descendants may have some sort of claim, plus spouses' claims. Several years ago I was talking with a lady who wanted to take sole ownership of "the farm" but had over 100 relatives that she could name who had some sort of shared interest.
roger_LS, post: 426242, member: 11550 wrote: Sure, not needed here because you can get to the intent of the deed, but say they were conservative and wanted to clarify the deed, quitclaims wouldn't hurt, right?
It can be argued that they wouldn't hurt, but they will be expensive. You will need the other owner to participate and that owner is nebulous. I can't pick up the phone and call them, heck even with all my contacts I only have a faint clue who I would begin to talk to about this since it's a government agency. No doubt there would be many attorney phone calls, meetings, maybe a committee or a board to go to, approvals, more meetings,,,,,,,,
Anyway it makes little sense to do a quit claim deed one way to "fix" this and not the other way also, both owners should do it. I will still need to do the survey, monument the line, produce a ROS and I will write a description to the new metes numbers, if they wish to use it they can, I'll leave it up to the title guys how to handle it. I would file an affidavit and/or a corrective description to get into the chain, reference the ROS and the original description.
MightyMoe, post: 426304, member: 700 wrote: It can be argued that they wouldn't hurt, but they will be expensive. You will need the other owner to participate and that owner is nebulous. I can't pick up the phone and call them, heck even with all my contacts I only have a faint clue who I would begin to talk to about this since it's a government agency. No doubt there would be many attorney phone calls, meetings, maybe a committee or a board to go to, approvals, more meetings,,,,,,,,
Anyway it makes little sense to do a quit claim deed one way to "fix" this and not the other way also, both owners should do it. I will still need to do the survey, monument the line, produce a ROS and I will write a description to the new metes numbers, if they wish to use it they can, I'll leave it up to the title guys how to handle it. I would file an affidavit and/or a corrective description to get into the chain, reference the ROS and the original description.
In the situation that you describe I wouldn't do quitclaim deeds. It is a pure matter of survey as you say, File a survey with notes explaining the discrepancies should cover it. Even the lawyers should be able to research the control of called for monuments in about 5 minutes.
thebionicman, post: 426254, member: 8136 wrote: They may prevent you from ever having an interest in something you may want to purchase or lien later.
I'll give you a Quit Claim Deed for the Brooklyn Bridge for $2500. 😉 (cash only)
Dave Karoly, post: 426320, member: 94 wrote: In the situation that you describe I wouldn't do quitclaim deeds. It is a pure matter of survey as you say, File a survey with notes explaining the discrepancies should cover it. Even the lawyers should be able to research the control of called for monuments in about 5 minutes.
Aside from planning issues, have you come across any situations in your research where quitclaims "don't work" as has been suggested.