I’m sure this varies by state, but I looked into increasing my education with a 4 year degree from Mississippi State University back a number of years ago now. As mentioned, I have an associates degree in Civil Engineering Technology that meets the education requirements for the state of MS to count towards licensure. Basically nothing except less than a handful of standard courses would count towards the 4 year degree. Basically, it would be like starting over. The state of Mississippi is where the bulk of the work that I do is and will always be, more than likely, but there have been opportunities to work in certain adjoining states for certain projects. Because the 2 year is accepted in MS and I’m not planning to move to a different state, there’s really no reason to go back to school full time for a degree that is only needed for out of state use. It would be a hardship at my age with a family to quit a good paying job and go to school full time and take on the expense of tuition, books, etc, to get a license in another state for occasional use. Situations are unique from person to person, but I know several licensees who are like me and would like the opportunity to do work in a neighboring state, when those opportunities arise, but can’t, strictly because there is no path for a 2 year experienced licensee. If a young guy asked me about what they should do for education, I tell them to get an engineering degree if they ever think there is any chance they will want to work out of state. As for me, when I was younger and went to school, I never thought I would work out of state and didn’t research neighboring states requirements. I’m guessing if I would have, 2 years might have been accepted in those states back in 2000, but idk. I guess I say all this to say, just adding some education to finish out a 4 year degree is not always a viable option, but IMO, it shouldn’t have to be for an experienced individual who holds a license.
$20 per hour with no experience right out of HS. Yeah you are seeing what I am seeing. I know every area is different and what the market will handle is different. When I came back to the private sector side just a few years ago. I took $20 per hour. Just to get my foot in the door. I was hardly in experienced to be honest. I honestly think I should have in hindsight looked around a bit. But that’s what I was seeing for crew chief rate. I left a 6 figure plus job doing geomatics just on the other side of the house. Geodesy and orbits and datum type work. I don’t regret the $20 per hour at all. But I made more than that prior to the year 2000 in private sector. Now I have formal education directly related to Surveying and Civil Engineering and GIS that are from Universities and Jr college and Technical Schools. I still have no degree but that’s not the system’s fault it’s I just went to whatever school I could based on where I was. Not a lot of online courses when I started Surveying so I went at night or on weekends. My crew chiefs now make almost the same as I did or less than when I was a crew chief prior to the year 2000 before joining the military. I also completed a SIT apprenticeship program while in the USMC thank goodness it is recognized federally and in a few states. 4000 hours in to completion with many different specific things that I had to get signed off on for the different hours. It was ran through the base I was on.
I hope it is acceptable when I apply for the next steps to become licensed here. I am clawing my way back up financially and such. Now I do try to put myself in the shoes of those starting out. $20 to $25 is not high in my opinion based on the cost of good for a labor person a Rodman. People are paying that to cut grass. Work at gas stations Tractor supply and like you stated flipping burgers. Now how to bring those in and weed out the bad and still keep the lights on for the business side is tough. Depending on the market. I am a believer in the correct formal education. However I am not a believer that a 4 year degree is the only answer. I know several with 4 year degree and 2 years of experience that have obtained a LS. I don’t know if that is good either. Many many things a good 4 year degree can teach you. But there are many things it cannot as well and many of those things are extremely important to the true professional. One thing is I learn is that we never stop learning for sure. Or we will be doomed.
Why did the apprenticeship paths go away? I think that if developed correctly would be another option to become licensed.
Why did the apprenticeship paths go away? I think that if developed correctly would be another option to become licensed.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Offload the education, training and mentorship responsibilities, and you offload enough overhead to make the shareholders (or the head honcho of a small firm) bank, at least in the short term, which pumps up your ownership shares (for large firms) or your retirement fund (for small firms).
Sure, you'll see some problem projects due to incompetence, and have higher turnover and lower job satisfaction among the plebes, but if you grab as much as you can while you can, and keep those pesky complainers at arm's length, you can carve out your piece and take it with you to retirement, leaving your replacements (and the next generation) holding the bag. (Remember, if you teach them too much, they might leave and become your competitor.)
And once you've demolished the apprenticeship route, you can start tearing down the formal education route as a scam, so you have an excuse to pay bottom-of-the-barrel wages to college graduates, while still avoiding mentorship and training for your people...but still giving it lip service so you don't look like quite as much of a hypocrite.
Now you've got a captive workforce - made even more captive by our healthcare model in the USA. Mission accomplished.
That’s very interesting. I do see some of what you are saying in reality. Especially the part about mentorship. It seems I see the whole if I am good at X no one else is so I will not teach what I know so I have job security mentality. The whole let me keep you down so I can remain in my position. These are all bad Leadership Principles. I saw some of this in the military but way more in the workplace after I got out. I even had a senior try and tell me not to be helping one of my jr Marines as that person could climb the ladder and compete with me. Thankfully I had some great mentors that told me you have two choices in the way you lead. One you can be successful and keep others down and make your mark. You will be successful but the whole team under you will not. Or you can give it your all to make everyone under your guidance better than you are and you will be pushed up the ladder or find the rung that you are needed for the good of the whole team. I guess this applies to Surveying as a whole based on what you wrote. Either you are looking beyond your own personal gain for the good of the whole Profession or you are only looking out for yourself. Well we all see and know what will happen to the ship if the top is only looking out for number 1. Sooner or later the ship is going down.
I was at a seminar this past week learning and was caught off guard when me and a few folks were having a night cap together one evening. Cold drink and chatting. The LS who devotes a lot of time managing a survey group plus giving back to education and teaching classes for the association asked me if I would consider just coming up and spending time on his crews. He is not able to get out and just mentor and teach the younger folks some of the basics. At his level he is all business I reckon keeping the work coming in. The whole model changed vs when I started. I mean the owner who was a LS came out once in a while to walk the site and look for opportunities to teach us things. Now once you get to a certain role it’s all bean counting and meetings. Not that these are bad just some balance is needed. I think if I could get licensed and say hang a shingle one of the things I would like to do is hire helpers from high school and interns that would work beside me daily learning about the profession and applying the things they learned at the college level. I guess those who saw me taking classes at night did that very thing they made me reduce level notes compute closures all the things I learned in class was reinforced in the field. That’s in my opinion how we keep the profession professional and moving forward. One aspect many other considerations as well.
I am in Idaho. A lot of vets are unaware of the Joint Services Transcript program. You can have your DD-214 and any DOD certificates evaluated for college credit. My first review was about 13 credits. After providing better documentation I got 19 plus several voc ed credits.
Every branch has a way to do this. It's a shame more aren't taking advantage of it..
MO upped their requirements when the pass/fail rates were getting bad. I'm guessing that too many applicants were getting their experience sign-off via the good ol' boys club vs. having the actual knowledge to pass the examination. They had a mandatory 4 year time frame between passing the FS and being able to take the PS. That was removed this month and I think it's back to 2 years.
"It would be a hardship at my age with a family to quit a good paying job
and go to school full time and take on the expense of tuition, books,
etc, to get a license in another state for occasional use."
I agree that quitting a job and all the expense could be a hardship, but is there no middle ground?
Expense: From the "good paying job" statement, I am assuming you are employed by someone else. If that is the case, could you figure up the value of the out of state work that is being missed out on and approach your employer with that number and cost of tuition to work out the company paying the expense? They could write some of that off as a business expense. There are IRS rules that address the amount that can be used for this before hitting a taxable benefit level (by the way 12 hours a year at the program at the bottom of the page is right in that cut-off range), but an accountant should be able to help figure that out. If I assumed incorrectly and you are self-employed - check with your accountant and see how much might be deductible for you. Spending money just to have a deduction is silly to me, but if there is gained value in the out-of-state work that you are passing on, it might be worthwhile.
Quitting a job: Why would you need to quit a job? There are so many online options that quitting should not be necessary. Several degrees are set up to be completed at your own pace on your own time. If you watch TV, read a book, build cabinets, etc..., you just dedicate some of that time to the course work. Even if an online course required attendance via an online platform at a certain time, it would just be for a few hours a week.
Full time: Several colleges and universities often indicate a preference for full time students because they are mainly dealing with kids who are just starting out and it is more likely those students who go full-time will complete their degree. You are an adult and would be making this choice based on a more specific set of circumstances than having been pushed into college because it was the next expected step after high school. If any school is not willing to work with you as a part time student, then there is another one that will gladly do so. Even kids just starting out can select part time if they want to.
On the lack of transfer credits you discussed. Mississippi State University seems to have a bachelor of integrated studies degree program. The webpage seems to indicate that an associates degree from an accredited institution would transfer completely. The program is supposed to be fully online and they even have a emphasis in geosciences already set up - which would actually be a great course of study for surveyors. Just would need to verify it was accepted, in combination with your hours of surveying course work from your associates, by the other states you are looking at into. https://www.online.msstate.edu/bsis
For the record, I can understand your frustration. I have a 4-year technology degree. Just before I started my studies, the statutes were changed to no longer accept technology degrees for engineering licensure, only engineering degrees met the licensing requirements, in my home state. I could not become an engineer in my home state, but could in several other nearby states. So I, at least to an extent, get where you are coming from.
Yeah that joint transcipt thing came out after I got out but it supposed to be set up that I will receive credits for that as well. I know 3 ABET colleges reviewed my dd214 as I got out and was sending them out thinking I would get a chance to finish my degree. They basically gave me a lot of credits . My advanced rsi and GIS course descriptions ended up getting me like two classes and the master degree level. I should maybe get that added to my packet here as I submit to get licensed maybe they will count it who knows. Seems they go right down the list so it will be iffy.
The JST is usually the best route to get the actual credit. Most Universities and Colleges will waive pre-reqs but not give you transcripted credits. They also lack the service related information to catch all available credits.
If your goal is to get an accredited geomatics degree there isn't much difference. If you trying to get credits to meet the related degree plus 30 credits in surveying path this can make a huge difference. While there are several required courses you can count gis, remote sensing, and others toward the 30.
I put little stock in degrees and the university industry and say this as someone that went through it and got one. If they made a move in Washington to make them a requirement for survey licensure I’d oppose it.
Maybe some things have changed since I looked at it, but when I checked, probably close to 10 years ago, if going to MSU for a bachelor’s degree, with my current 2 year credits, I figured it would be a solid 3 years maybe a little longer, if going full time. Getting that many hours part time would take probably 2-3 times that long and cost quite a bit. It’s not worth that for me. Thousands of dollars and years worth of night school for a few extra jobs here and there. Maybe it is for someone else. I just think it’s absolutely ridiculous that is what it takes for an experienced and licensed individual in a neighboring state. More than likely, i would do just as much work in TN, which I plan to pursue, and they accept a 2 year degree and another state’s license. That is reasonable, but shutting the door over 2 more years of schooling is not IMHO. I also did the Geospatial & Remote Sensing Certificate Program through MSU, but I figured those courses into taking 3 years full time to get a Bachelor’s Degree. The Degree was in Land Surveying though and not Geosciences.
This is a biggie, imo.
There seems to be a "I'm getting mine, you get yours" mentality at some firms. Field crews get "feedback", when shots in the field were not exactly as desired by office staff. Was the problem caused by the field staff not taking notes or paying attention during presentations by the LS or senior office staff? No, because there were no presentations/learning opportunities.
I'm in the middle of this myself. I am grandfathered in, as far as the approved credit hours required, being enrolled prior to Jan 1., so I am in my four year post-LSIT enrollment experience frame.
Beginning Jan. 1
MO has three pathways, all require 15 semester hours of approved coursework, 6 of which are to be Legal Principles/Aspects of Surveying. This 6 hours is an upgraded requirement, from 3 semester hours of same, of those to be enrolled in the LSIT program beginning Jan 1, 2024. Also, the new regulations are eliminating the four year post LSIT mandatory time requirement and allowing all experience time to count, not just the time since LSIT enrollment.
Four year degree w/15 approved hrs plus four years total experience.
Two year degree w/15 approved hrs plus five years total experience.
15 approved hrs plus six years total experience.
If you know of someone trying to get their approved hours, have them CHECK WITH THE BOARD prior to enrolling. There apparently has been graduates of nationally recognized four year surveying degree programs that did not meet the Board requirements of the basic 6 hour Legal Principles of Surveying approved coursework.
There also seems to be a disconnect on when it is acceptable to sit for the PS national test on those grandfathered. I have heard that they must wait the full four years post enrollment in the LSIT program, and have also been told, no, you can take the PS any time but will have to wait the four years to apply for the State Specific/licensure. The former seems unnecessary as there is no experience verification involved prior to taking the PS that I am aware, only prior to application to take the State Specific. There are some contradictory statements floating around out there.
You seem set that you are not going to pursue meeting the requirements for the state(s) that call for a 4-year degree, but others may be in a similar boat. Knowing what to expect if they try for a 4-year degree might be useful. The following is just general information from my experience and probably doesn't hold true at every university.
If you are looking to fulfill the bachelors degree by continuing your associates in technology with a bachelors in engineering, many of your technology classes will not count towards the engineering curriculum. While it may vary by university, most associates (and bachelors) programs in technology usually follow a less stringent maths curriculum than an engineering program. If you look to finish with a bachelors in engineering, probably none of your math and very few, if any, of the engineering tech courses will count towards an engineering program (unless as electives which make up a small amount of a degree program and are usually very narrowly defined). So you might get ±12 hours of gen ed courses that count. Hence the suggestion to look outside the engineering sphere if you just need the degree to meet a requirement.
If your degree is from a community or technical college, expect most universities to devalue those classes and count very few of them towards a four year degree except as general education or elective courses (again - usually few and narrowly defined within an engineering degree). The exception to this is if the university has an agreement with the community college so that courses are 'preapproved' for transfer towards a 4 year degree.
If anyone was to go the bachelor of integrated studies route, 1) MAKE SURE it would be accepted by the board you are looking to get licensed by, 2) make sure it is a program that will 100% accept your associates fully for 60 hours of the degree content, 3) if you have additional hours of course work beyond an associates try to get those hours counted as well - this might require being a little pushy about it, but there is some leeway in what will be counted in those degree paths, and 4) no matter how many hours you do have, expect at least 30 hours will have to be completed at the university you enroll in for the degree (pretty common requirement at many universities).
"I just think it’s absolutely ridiculous that is what it takes for an
experienced and licensed individual in a neighboring state. ... and
they accept a 2 year degree and another state’s license. That is
reasonable, but shutting the door over 2 more years of schooling is not
IMHO."
Why would a state enact a 4-year degree requirement for its own citizens, set a hard sunset date for any of the alternate routes, and then just continue to accept out-of-state individuals for licensure without requiring that they meet the same requirements as the citizens in that state have to meet? (The states I'm familiar with look at the date of your initial license to determine which set of criteria you have to meet - so it isn't even as if out-of-state individuals don't get the exact same consideration of expectations.)
In my opinion, it is unreasonable to expect a state to have one set of requirements for its own citizens and a different set of requirements for an out-of-state person just because the other state has different requirements.
