I live and work in Arkansas. In Arkansas, we are supposed to PUBLISH our plats in GROUND scale. I have been learning various things about SCALE factors. I would VERY much like to use the CARLSON to publish in GROUND scale. Now, I have told the State Surveyor that there really is "No such thing as ground scale". There is APPROXIMATE ground scale. An average of the area. But, ground scale is an INDIVIDUAL point thing. No 2 points will often share the same Combined Scale Factor. Where I work, most of the time, my CSF is between 1.000075, and 1.00010, or 75 PPM, and 100 PPM.
This fits within MIN standards, most of the time. HOWEVER, I'd like to USE the CARLSON 2009 (Settings), then (DRAWING SETUP), and there, I can enter a CSF. For some reason, it does not ANNOTATE with the applied scale factor.
Is this do-able? Or, am I "Barking up the wrong tree?" Maybe moving up to CARLSON 2022 would help? (Then I'd have to learn Intellicadd, and I'm too clunky for that....)
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What Have I been doing? well, simply building a localize into my JAVAD, and IGNORING the scale factor, after that. But, I have some jobs with SPC totally. These jobs, well, IF I can scale for annotation, would work better.
I could even scale the whole individual portion of the survey, and then annotate it. But, I don't really like those solutions. What if I have a layer off, and miss something? anyway, any ideas, or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you kindly,
Nate
Not sure if this exactly fits what you are attempting to do, but when reading your post I was reminded of a Mark Silver video where he applies a dynamic scale factor using Carlson Survey. In his example, he's working on a survey the size of a township, where the different scale factors across each section amounted to some appreciable error. I believe that in most cases, a selecting a single combined scale factor and localizing your site to that is sufficient, just indicate on your map the scale factor or point you used.
Here's a link to the video:
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All our jobs are published in a "surface factor".
I like to keep them under about 15ppm which depends on the size of the job, a large size job with lots of elevation changes negates precise distances.
You're correct that you don't publish ground distances unless you do each one.
I control all that with Trimble.
Autocad hitches a ride along with the projection.?ÿ
Mr. Moe, I agree with your idea of
keep them under about 15ppm
I like that.
Nate
We don't use Carlson but complete all our survey on SPC.?ÿ We set our scale factor in TBC and leave it!?ÿ All field work is imported or exported from TBC and Civil3d.?ÿ This allows us to set our Cad files up in the proper zone and set our transformation settings in Civil3d for use with any data on the SPC system such as Cad imagery or GIS data.?ÿ Works great and is seamless once things are setup properly.
Nate,
Try the "Settings" Menu in Carlson, and look at Project Scale Factor section.?ÿ There are options for input/entry scale, and output/report scale.?ÿ This may get you where you want to go....
Nate,
Newer versions of Carlson will allow you to annotate with a project scale factor so that you can keep your drawing in Grid and annotate "ground" distances. For your version, you'll probably have to do your own thing. I would maybe do this:
- Create your boundary polyline
- Copy the boundary polyline to the side, away from other linework
- Scale the copy of the boundary polyline by the combined factor (determined as you like, i.e. single point or average of multiple points).
- Annotate the scaled polyline.
- Move annotations from the scaled polyline to the Grid polyline
- Inverse a long segment from your grid polyline and use a calculator to determine the ground distance and compare to your annotated scaled distance to ensure that you've scaled the right way.
Remember that areas should probably also be scaled. You can annotate the area of the scaled polyline and copy it over also. Note that a scale area will be the grid area times divided by the combined factor squared.?ÿ
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Upgrading to Carlson 2022 SurvCad from 2009 will probably have your head spinning just as much as attempting the grid to ground conversion.?ÿ When GPS was becoming "a thing" that larger companies could afford, I was fortunate enough to have a mentor who was responsible for technology development throughout the large company and was a guru in the use and adjustment GPS data.?ÿ When one of my projects was being converted to ground, he would sit me down next to him and walk me through what he was doing, why, explaining least squares, the Chi Squares test and more, frankly, it felt like he was speaking a foreign language at times.?ÿ He used Trimble software to accomplish his adjustments and constrain the network, merely forwarding me the data with the adjustments applied.
I'm running Carlson 2018, only because I just haven't needed to update to 2022, despite the fact that I can do it for free under my license maintenance fees.?ÿ I don't do much work that requires me to convert to ground, most of the stuff I do for local MUAs and they only want as-built data on 83/88, regardless of the flavor so that we can complete their GIS updates at no cost to them.?ÿ When I do need to scale to ground, I call in the guru, who, btw is also licensed.?ÿ?ÿ
Nate,
Newer versions of Carlson will allow you to annotate with a project scale factor so that you can keep your drawing in Grid and annotate "ground" distances. For your version, you'll probably have to do your own thing. I would maybe do this:
- Create your boundary polyline
- Copy the boundary polyline to the side, away from other linework
- Scale the copy of the boundary polyline by the combined factor (determined as you like, i.e. single point or average of multiple points).
- Annotate the scaled polyline.
- Move annotations from the scaled polyline to the Grid polyline
- Inverse a long segment from your grid polyline and use a calculator to determine the ground distance and compare to your annotated scaled distance to ensure that you've scaled the right way.
Remember that areas should probably also be scaled. You can annotate the area of the scaled polyline and copy it over also. Note that a scale area will be the grid area times the combined factor squared.?ÿ
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@shawn-billings I hate asking this out of sheer pride, but is something I keep stumbling over.?ÿ Would your scaled are (presumably the ground value) be equal to the grid area divided by the CSF sq?
@dave-o The ground area is computed by squaring the combined scale factor.?ÿ GROUND AREA = GRID AREA / CSF^2
Real ground distances won't actually close.?ÿ
That's one reason I prefer a "ground surface" as opposed to real ground.?ÿ
@dave-o Yes! You caught me in error. Thank you for correcting. The point I was making was regarding the square of the CSF and I neglected to pay proper attention to the operator. Thank you.
- Create your boundary polyline
- Copy the boundary polyline to the side, away from other linework
- Scale the copy of the boundary polyline by the combined factor (determined as you like, i.e. single point or average of multiple points).
- Annotate the scaled polyline.
- Move annotations from the scaled polyline to the Grid polyline
- Inverse a long segment from your grid polyline and use a calculator to determine the ground distance and compare to your annotated scaled distance to ensure that you've scaled the right way.
Remember that areas should probably also be scaled. You can annotate the area of the scaled polyline and copy it over also. Note that a scale area will be the grid area times the combined factor squared.?ÿ
That's what I did.... except I scaled the copy, to "Ground" (Actually An average single CSV). And, did the acreage on the scaled linework.
I'm getting done.
I am 100% self taught, with ACAD, Carlson, etc. So, changing to a newer version, contains "Trauma". 🙂
Nate
@dave-o Yes! You caught me in error. Thank you for correcting. The point I was making was regarding the square of the CSF and I neglected to pay proper attention to the operator. Thank you.
Yes.?ÿ Good point and thank you for that.?ÿ I may not have thought about squaring the acreage # until you mentioned it.
