Anyone out there have all the maps for Napa County in California??ÿ I would like to obtain them to add to my collection of maps.?ÿ I believe that the County shouldn't be charging for available public maps like that anyways, especially land surveyors.?ÿ
Good Luck. The Napa County Recorders office has a subscription service were they charge per page of each document.
My county charges $600 for the ROS scan, that's a yearly fee, of course that doesn't represent anywhere near the maps for the county. Is that what you mean by maps, or is it something else?
@hawkins-ls-7973 Yes, I am aware of this website where the subscription is required - this is what I'm trying to create.?ÿ I have a friend who started camapsource.com and he has purchased himself a lot of Counties.?ÿ I'd like to get as many on there as possible.?ÿ There has got to be a predominant Napa County surveyor out there who has all the maps, I would hope.?ÿ
It is ridiculous to me, the amount they charge for obtaining a map.?ÿ We depend on being able to access Recorded maps to even make a proposal for a job.?ÿ And, the Client is paying review fees, recording fees - just to get a map Recorded.?ÿ In my opinion, the fact that they could charge you that much for a map that you may have just recorded is ridiculous.?ÿ But I digress lol
Try http://keithwspencer.net/Library/Library.shtml?ÿ Not sure how up to date it is
File a Public Records Act request with the Recorder, asking for digital files of all maps (the same ones they use to make copies).?ÿ Copy County Counsel on the request.?ÿ Offer to provide the digital media (a large USB stick will probably do).?ÿ Point out that it shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes of staff time to drag-and-drop the files onto the transfer media, and offer to pay for that.
When the Recorder balks (likely), respond with a copy of Sierra Club v. County of Orange (CA Supreme Court), and copy the Board of Supervisors.
I had to do that in Yolo County in 2018.?ÿ Once they got over the shock of learning that public records aren't a county profit center, they started responding much more helpfully to update requests.?ÿ The update I got earlier this year cost me 37 bucks.
Well played Mr Frame, excellent move in fact. OUTSTANDING!!!
P.S.?ÿ Phil Danskin may already be working on this.?ÿ A couple of months ago he asked for a copy of the PRA request I filed, I think he was planning to go after Napa County maps, but maybe he was thinking Marin.
@jim-frame Thank you!?ÿ I really appreciate your help!?ÿ I will let you know how this goes
@ric-moore Napa is not on there - I am familiar with this site and it is a good one.?ÿ Another one I like is camapsource.com
@jim-frame I put in a formal records request, just like you suggested, and got this response back with my request closed out:
Filed maps are available for a fee and by paid subscription and are therefore not subject to public records act requests.
So, I have emailed the County recorder now about this and I sent them that Sierra Club v Orange County - we will see what they say.?ÿ I'm not sure how a recorded Survey Map isn't subject to public records act requests, though. Hmmmm.
The law requires that the records be provided at the cost of reproduction in the form in which they are held, not through some method that's convenient (and profitable!) for the county.?ÿ They Recorder is trying to blow you off.?ÿ
I wouldn't bother with the Recorder any further, I'd go directly to County Counsel and cc the Supervisors, referencing the Sierra Club case.?ÿ Be specific about what you want (digital copies of all maps held by the county in digital form).?ÿ If you live in the county, I suggest setting up a meeting with your district Supervisor to explain things in person.?ÿ They're there to represent you, and they're generally receptive to pressing constituent matters, especially when doing so doesn't cost the county anything.
@elzeballa The Marin chapter of CLSA has been working on this problem for at least 6 months and we have sent a second more assertive letter now, based on Frame??s model from Yolo. ?ÿThe short answer is that they will have to comply eventually, it??s just going to take some legal wrangling.
I believe our first letter received the same response as yours. ?ÿ
Our next chapter meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, March 16 if you want to discuss further:
marinclsa.org
This issue has wide support in the surveyor community from Marin to Sonoma at least. ?ÿI believe there??s some outreach going on with Napa surveyors but they are not organized so hard to reach them
@jim-frame?ÿ Glad to see others hold local government accountable when they run afoul of the law or make up their own rules.?ÿ California is similar to Virginia for foia.?ÿ Virginia has exemptions to include some topography paid for by locales, underground utilities (security issue as someone could sabotage).?ÿ
Virginia allows the Circuit Court Clerks to charge a subscription fee (generally $600 ea county)?ÿ to access recorded land records.?ÿ They only allow local government to charge for the amount of time to gather and deliver the data.
This data is valuable public data paid for with public funds and increases in value the more it is used.?ÿ If not used becomes worthless.
look forward to your results
Here is what I got back (underlined) from the Recorder - the case he mentions that I sent him was the one that Jim Frame told me about (Sierra Club v Orange County):
The case you cited refers to Geographic Information System data. Napa County geographic information data is available free as shape files via our GIS agency. Filed maps are not GIS data.
As long as the county makes it filed maps available in some format, it is not required to make those maps available in other formats.
I'm not sure where to go from here, other than ask to pay someone at the County to copy the files from a computer to a USB or harddrive.?ÿ It seems like it is getting into the legal realm of things.?ÿ What does it mean to make filed maps available in "some format" but not in others??ÿ The format, to me, is electronic PDFs.?ÿ The vehicle with which those PDFs are distributed can be any number of ways - it sounds like they believe that as long as they make them available, then they can charge for them.?ÿ It would be one thing if they had paper maps sitting around and they had to charge to make them electronic - but, they already scan them and have them available.?ÿ They even have them on a website, available for purchase - so they are on the County's servers.?ÿ GIS file or other file type, the point is that they are electronic files that should be free that they are charging for. Different from the Sierra Club case where the GIS files were already free.
How should I respond to this guy?
