Carlson surface editing

billvhill, post: 383673, member: 8398 wrote: I tried to draw a line from the end of the existing 3d faces and then use the "add entity" but for some reason the line ends up being at elevation 0 even though I snapped to the end points of the surface triangles

Did you try drawing a 3d poly line?

You can find it under the draw pulldown.

Thanks RADAR, that worked.
The last time I did a tin was using pacsoft in windows xp which had a trim and extend command.
I have had Carlson since 2011 but have used it just for the f2f and Autocad 2002 for drafting. I trying to change by ancient ways but it hasn't been easy.
I upgraded to Carlson 2016 OEM version and also got a subscription to Autocad 2016 because I was required to use multi leaders on an engineering project. I am debating if I should load Civil 3d to generate the tins since that is what the engineering firm is using but am concerned about the learning curve. I need to put out 60,000 feet of strip topo

Thanks Again

Don't know what happened, It worked on the first try but can't get Carlson to do it again.

I always just generate a new surface and overlap a sufficient amount of the old data, then merge the new stuff into the original. Sounds like a lot of work, but it's super quick after the first time you do it.

flyin solo, post: 383699, member: 8089 wrote: Sounds like a lot of work, but it's super quick after the first time you do it.

That does seem like a lot of work, for one triangle I cut that I shouldn't have.
I used the add point outside the surface and then cut the extra triangles out, but it only worked once like add entity with the 3d polyline and then it wouldn't do it again.

Take all of the points you want to add and create a surface using them. The click on Triangulation File Utilities and merge the surfaces into one. It's a pretty straight forward procedure, but if you haven
t done it before go to YouTube and check out the Carlson Software training videos. There are 2 or 3 on merging surfaces.

From my experience the Carlson TIN editing routine is best used for minor editing. Anything more and you should simply recreate the TIN properly.
It really needs a lot of improvement in my opinion.

Suggestions to make surface work easier:

Keep your TIN points in a point group.
See Points ->Point Group Manager.
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Start a new clean drawing to do your TIN work.
See File -> New -> Then click the drop down arrow next to "Open" and select a "Without a Template Imperial" (or Metric).
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In the new drawing, draw all of the points that you want to include in the TIN (using point groups).
See Points -> Draw-Locate Points.
Make sure the toggle box titled "Locate on Real Z Axis" is checked, as well as the "Erase Duplicates" box.
Click on the button titled "Draw Point Group".
Follow prompts.
NOTE: I rely 100% upon the CRD file for coordinate storage (similar to Pacsoft). I do not rely upon the points that are drawn in the .dwg
Be careful erasing points from your drawing if you do not rely upon the .CRD file!!
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Switch to your main drawing and select all of your Breaklines (which should be 3D Polylines).
Right Click and copy to the clipboard.
Switch to your TIN drawing and right click and paste to original coordinates.
This is a VERY handy routine.
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Create your TIN boundary.
Draw -> Shrink-Wrap Entities
You may have to adjust the settings a little to get it right.
I end up using the Edit -> Polyline Utilities -> Edit Polyline (add or remove polyline vertex) to edit the shrink wrap polyline).
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When you create your surface, make sure the following toggle boxes under the Selection tab are checked:
Carlson Points
3D Polylines
3D Faces

Alternatively you can use the "From File or Point Group".
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So now you have a drawing with just your points (from point group, drawn in 3D), breaklines (3D Polylines), and Inclusion Boundary.
The surface model can now be recreated within seconds...you can edit or add a breakline, add additional points, adjust your inclusion boundary and re-create the surface again in seconds.

View the surface to check for problems View -> Surface 3D Viewer. I usually apply an exaggerated vertical scale.

imaudigger, post: 383824, member: 7286 wrote:
So now you have a drawing with just your points (from point group, drawn in 3D), breaklines (3D Polylines), and Inclusion Boundary.
The surface model can now be recreated within seconds...you can edit or add a breakline, add additional points, adjust your inclusion boundary and re-create the surface again in seconds.

View the surface to check for problems View -> Surface 3D Viewer. I usually apply an exaggerated vertical scale.

Thanks
So, I need to create a boundary polyline along the outer edge of my tin instead of trimming and extending after the fact?
How do you usually create the inclusion boundary?
In Pacsoft, I would just edit the surface once it was created. I really hesitated to recreate the surface for one triangle I accidently deleted, since I had already spent a hour editing the interior. There were a few descriptor mistakes a few utility shots I had excluded from the tin and many breakline gaps within the surface, since most of the topo was done by gps and then the missing areas by total station at a a later time and by different crews.
Is there a way to change descriptions on groups of points or should I just fix the 3d polys manually?
Is there a way to create a group by the points already in the tin?

I always usually use an inclusion boundary (as I did in Pacsoft).
It makes it easy to recreate the TIN quickly (compared to manually trimming and extending after the fact).
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Inclusion Boundary
Draw -> Shrink-Wrap Entities
You may have to adjust the settings a little to get it right.
I end up using the Edit -> Polyline Utilities -> Edit Polyline (add or remove polyline vertex) to edit the shrink wrap polyline).
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Per the assigning new descriptions on groups of points...
Points -> Coordinate File Utilities -> Description for Points. There you can select points by range or group.
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Per the question regarding creating point group based upon points utilized in an existing TIN.....I'm not sure about that one...Nothing jumps out at me other than selecting points within the inclusion boundary...but you probably have other points drawn that are excluded...You might have to delete the excluded points from the drawing...make your point group, then re-draw them after you are done. That's why I like to have a separate drawing that is dedicated to just the TIN.
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It's not that you can't do things the way you are going about it....
In this instance since you have significant time invested in edits, you may be better off creating multiple surfaces and merging them.
If you still have the 3D faces in your drawing (prior to deleting your triangle), you may be able to recreate the TIN from the 3D faces.
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I have gotten in the habit of copying my project file every morning to a back-up folder and having Autocad do auto save.
Saves the day sometimes.

billvhill, post: 383861, member: 8398 wrote: Thanks
So, I need to create a boundary polyline along the outer edge of my tin instead of trimming and extending after the fact?
How do you usually create the inclusion boundary?
In Pacsoft, I would just edit the surface once it was created. I really hesitated to recreate the surface for one triangle I accidently deleted, since I had already spent a hour editing the interior. There were a few descriptor mistakes a few utility shots I had excluded from the tin and many breakline gaps within the surface, since most of the topo was done by gps and then the missing areas by total station at a a later time and by different crews.
Is there a way to change descriptions on groups of points or should I just fix the 3d polys manually?
Is there a way to create a group by the points already in the tin?

For my inclusion boundary, I usually just draw a PLINE snapped to the outermost points I want included in the surface.

However, if you're only missing the one triangle, I think the easiest thing in your case would be to just draw a 3DFACE (that's the command) between the points you wanted included, then use the Triangulation File Utility (command: TINUTIL) to combine the new triangle with your existing surface.

Thanks guys
this really helps