This morning brand new Amtrak service from Seattle to Portland was stopped by a train derailment on to I-5 at mile marker 116 Southbound with multiple fatalities.
47?ø04'55.4"N 122?ø40'32.5"W
At this point the rail line crosses the interstate in a rather sharp "S" curve on to highway overpasses. The curve in question appears to be of a tighter radius than the curve in Philly from the accident a few years ago. The train was Southbound with a conventional locomotive pushing it. In looking at the crash videos the passenger cars were of a lightweight articulated design with ultra short length and single axles rather than trucks. In my engineering opinion push/pull passenger equipment should be of standard weight 80' cars. This particular articulated caterpillar style should only be used in standard pull type service. Short lightweight cars with a single axle being pushed through a sharp turn have an extreme tendency to skew under normal service. Any error in track alignment and or over speed and it?ÿis a design recipe for catastrophic failure. The failure occurred at the sharpest radius on the line, and is a geometric failure with the simplest physics explanation.
Because the possibility of predicting this exact type failure at this exact location, in my opinion, people should be indicted and imprisoned for this particular event. Now this may actually be found to be an intentional act being as how there is easy road access to the failure point and the simplest of interference could have initiated this action, however that occurence was also predictable.
Paul in PA, PE, PLS
This is close to me. Injuries AND casualties are reported, as Paul mentioned. The freeway is closed in both directions. Some train cars landed on the freeway from the overpass. It's a wonder no motorists were hit.
Motorists were hit and injured, but as of yet no motorist fatalities are reported.
At least one of the railcars was pancaked upside down on the highway under another railcar and it will take heavy lifting equipment to get to it.
Paul in PA
Quite a rush to judgement. But you say that you have?ÿ the experience that qualifies your opinion.
I have none?ÿ except for living near rail lines.
There must be a number of factors that could become involved.
On my morning ride, NPR reported that this was a recent high speed track placed in service. I have taken high speed rail abroad.
The reason that the US is decades behind in high speed rail?ÿ involves private business ownership of the rail track. Track is maintained for freight and slow passenger. Europe, Japan maintain the?ÿ track for high speed even their low speed is faster than US passenger trains. It is maintained by the government.
A lot of the US accidents always seem to involve substance abuse somehow. But since this was suppose to be an elite route, I would think that only the most experienced and competent engineers would be involved,
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Paul,
I think you are way out of line.?ÿ Other than listening to the news medias unfiltered reactions, looking at some new photos and possibly viewing Google Earth I doubt you have much factual information about the event.?ÿ In time we will have a better understanding of what went wrong, be it mechanical failure, human error or design failure.?ÿ Until then, you are just spouting off what verges on slanderous speech.
I spent a fair amount of time working on this project for both the BNSF and Sound Transit.?ÿ I provided the pre-design surveying on about 10 miles of the line and have worked for many of the engineers and contractors involved with the project for years.?ÿ First, this is not a new service.?ÿ The Cascade line has been running with these particular cars for years if not decades now.?ÿ What is new is the section of track where the derailment took place.?ÿ Until just recently, the route followed the shore line of the Puget Sound around on BNSF track.?ÿ Sound Transit purchased the Pt Defiance bypass which leaves the BNSF track at the Nisqually River and heads overland through Ft. Lewis and S. Tacoma meet back up with mainline tracks in the Port of Tacoma.?ÿ A complete replacement of the bypass was just finished and it is now used by Amtrak as well as Sound Transits commuter rail.?ÿ While the majority of the bypass is designed for higher speeds, my understanding is that the this section would be run at lower speeds do not only to the curves but also the extremely steep grade going back down to the Nisqually River and BNSF line.
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Aren't you rushing judgement as well, bringing up substance abuse??ÿ Paul gave us his opinion and his reasons why the train derailed.?ÿ
I am sure living next to a rail line has made you an expert on Trains, if you ever move close to a Hospital let me know I could use some medical advice.?ÿ?ÿ
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This is definitely not a high speed track. The railway has a much tighter curve radius than the interstate it crosses. This is use of a secondary single track line to access a particular rail station location.
Reports list at least 6 fatalities.
I have surveyed along new high speed light rail lines as well as push/pull service lines and this meets neither criteria.
Having read some criticism I did some research on the Cascade equipment and note that it runs with?ÿ a locomotive at each end. Because I saw only one locomotive and no mention was made of a second locomotive being off the track or detached from the train I assumed it was in "Push" operation. That brings up an alternative accident cause.?ÿThe lead locomotive was notified of over speed and slowed down, while the trailing locomotive did not react as quickly, putting the passenger cars under serious compression which could have even derailed same on straight track, let along a sharp curve.
Paul in PA
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Aren't you rushing judgement as well, bringing up substance abuse??ÿ Paul gave us his opinion and his reasons why the train derailed.?ÿ
I am sure living next to a rail line has made you an expert on Trains, if you ever move close to a Hospital let me know I could use some medical advice.?ÿ?ÿ
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No. Please reread the post and don't twist what I stated.
I said that I have no expertise in engineering and railroad transportation,?ÿ Just an observation living in the NE corridor for many years and witnessing train derailments. I did qualify my comment about substance abuse.?ÿ?ÿ
I see?ÿ that this happened on an overpass/bridge that could be another factor.?ÿ
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This is definitely not a high speed track. The railway has a much tighter curve radius than the interstate it crosses. This is use of a secondary single track line to access a particular rail station location.
Reports list at least 6 fatalities.
I have surveyed along new high speed light rail lines as well as push/pull service lines and this meets neither criteria.
Paul in PA
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I believe that high speed track requires constant maintenance and inspection.
Reports are that train was at 70 mph.
I doubt it because at that speed railcars would have become aircars in a derailment and gone off the outside of the curve rather than the inside.
Paul in PA
After seeing video of the scene, there appeared to be some extensive wear to the rails themselves.
They were rather narrow in places that would cause a sudden shift in the train and that is enough to make a train leave its tracks and/or cause imbalance of the cars.
"Because the possibility of predicting this exact type failure at this exact location, in my opinion, people should be indicted and imprisoned for this particular event."
Wow - talk about rushing to judgement! IMHO that comment is completely uncalled for...
Just saw a live aerial view. The lead locomotive is well up the road South of the bridge, it left the tracks on the outside of the curve and continued in a straight line with most of the train following it. When it stopped the cars behind it began accordianing and eventually the last few cars came off the inside of the curve.?ÿ
The Mayor of Lakewood, WA was interviewed two weeks ago on TV and pretty much said that this would happen.
Jim in AZ, predicting this event is simply an application of freshman physics. Ignoring the Law of Physics is a greater crime than ignoring a statute.
Paul in PA
There was a locomotive at each end. The lead locomotive did go off the curve and is sitting on the interstate. I am reading posts from railroad people familiar with the area who say that the curve is rated for 30 mph. If the train was going 70 mph.... freshman physics.
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The trains are Talgo VI, pendulum carbodies that hang from a support and can tilt in a curve. Single axle, articulated units. They've been in use in the Pac Northwest for many years.
It's difficult to tell from Google Earth imagery, but the curve approaching the bridge from the NE looks goofy for a RR curve.?ÿ RR curves are spirals, having their tightest radius in the middle of the curve - usually.
I went back through several different imagery dates, and in each one that has sufficient resolution to tell, the middle of this curve is noticeably flatter that the portion closer to the tangent to the NE and the portion right where the tracks enter the bridge.
I attended a full day seminar on RR surveying a few years back (RR Surveying 101 by Charlie Tucker - I think that was his name).?ÿ The speaker told us to be careful when attempting to re-establish RW lines by offsetting the present centerline, especially on the curves.?ÿ He described a maintenance device that is used periodically that actually picks up the track a few inches, resets the ties, respreads the ballast, and then spikes the track back in place.?ÿ He said that this device has a tendency to pull the curved track toward the radius point a bit so that after several uses, the track at the middle of the curve might be several inches, or even feet toward the inside of the curve from it's original alignment.
I'm having a difficult time visualizing what that might do to the curve overall, but if any of you are more familiar with the machine and process, might that account for the odd shape of this curve??ÿ If so, the safe speed of the portions nearer the curve ends, getting tighter over time as the middle got flatter would be less than the original design safe speed, wouldn't it?
Even if so, if the curve was rated at 30 and the train going only a little over that, it should be only enough to derail the lead locomotive and pull only the first couple of cars off in a fairly "minor" derailment (that being a relative term).?ÿ The pileup as seen in the news photos and videos tends to support the info coming out that it was going about 70 as it entered the curve.
There may be some rush to judgment as to the blame in the OP, but I think Paul has some pretty plausible observations on the immediate causes.
On a smooth road or race track, a Lamborghini can travel awfully fast.?ÿ On a washboarded gravel road, it won't be getting anywhere any faster than my old F-250.?ÿ Likewise, fast train does not mean fast trip if it's on old track designed and maintained to be just good enough for slow moving freight trains.
Although it could be that the locomotive on the highway is just a control cab and not equipped with a prime mover. I've yet to see a good picture from that side of the bridge.
CNN mentioned something about a "puller?ÿlocomotive" up front and a "pusher?ÿlocomotive" in the rear. Wonder if the puller detailed and the pusher didn't realize what just happened and failed to brake.
All of the comments regarding the track condition are off.?ÿ The entire track is new from the ballast up.?ÿ When we surveyed the original line the track was complete junk.?ÿ It only saw traffic about once a week unless they were shipping strikers to Iraq out of Ft Lewis.?ÿ Except for I-5 it was kind of pleasant.?ÿ Once our survey was complete, the track was completely re-designed.?ÿ Every thing from the old ditches up is new.?ÿ I would guess the rail is brand new American made 136 lbs. ribbon.?ÿ It just opened up so the condition should be pristine.?ÿ I'm not sure if they even allow freight on it anymore.?ÿ As I recall, the original plan was to design for 90mph north of Dupont, or just south at Mounds Rd, but that fell through because of grade crossing issues.?ÿ The southern mile or so was always going to be considerably slower because of the curves and grade going down to the BNSF mainline at the Nisqually River. ?ÿ
As for the poor communication between the front and rear power, both sets are controlled by the engineer in the lead engine.
Only time will tell what happened.?ÿ I'm sure the FRA and NTSB are going over the site with a fine tooth comb.?ÿ I've worked on Amtrak derailments in the past and they are no fun.
I note that on several aerial views an instrument is setup on the RR bridge. I have not noticed any on the roadway.
Too many conflicting reports on the allowable speed limit through this curve.
That the overall run was limited to 79 mph max indicates that they did not want to cross the 80 mph threshold which would require meeting a higher set of standards. Sections of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor are maxed at 125 mph with Acela allowed 150 in Mass and RI.
When I was a Boy Scout leader I worked with a Penn RR engineer that did pre Amtrak testing on the Northeast Corridor. He ran trains loaded with sandbags at 120 mph speeds between Wash. DC and NYC using Penna RR's antique GG1 electrics, new in 1935.
Paul in PA
Sounds like you guys know what you are talking about.?ÿ Found this overhead pic:
https://twitter.com/bettinahansen/status/942844371623231488/photo/1
Lead loco was upright down the embankment, probably stopped mostly when it hit the highway ditch, which caused the accordion effect you described.?ÿ The rear loco & car pushed the others along, but even now look to still be on the track, which means there likely wasn't a large track failure.
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Chris Karnes - Chair of Pierce Transit's advisory board?ÿwas on the train and tweeted out, "Wow this train is fast. Once you leave Downtown Tacoma it's 79mph to Portland. We are passing up traffic on I-5."?ÿ "The train hit a truck apparently. I am fine, but the train is destroyed." "The train has derailed. Emergency crews are on the scene. Massive damage. People are hurt"
Nobody knows if he meant they hit a truck on the track, or one on the road.
https://twitter.com/TacomaTransit?ref_src ="twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor"
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Another report said there may have been an object on the track, which kinda makes sense.?ÿ ?ÿI thought I saw a small yellow sign on the upper track retaining wall that said 30mph.?ÿ That looks like alot faster than 30mph crash though.
Those investigators do a fantastic job, I have confidence that they will figure it out... just always?ÿ a bummer you have to wait 1-2 years for an official report.
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Was recently on the West coast next to an Amtrack line.?ÿ Granted I am not near a RR very often, but I couldn't understand the pusher setup they seemed to be running all the time.?ÿ To me it would seem less stable than a puller setup - I like trains, but I'm not educated on the subject.
