Aloha,
Wow! You'll are really great! I think all the Geomatic students must register and login here everyday as part of their curriculum! Wide variety of views. I have gathered so much information and now it is time to apply them in my particular situation!
The information that one brings to the table to prove something is the product itself.
It has to stand any test against what any other evidence shows.
With raw data and field notations and data collector files and digital data of any form, the problem falls in establishing the chain of evidence sufficiently to satisfy its integrity from field to table.
There are few experts to establish that a digital file is the same file in its original form as it was collected and that there is no manipulation or changes or errors, even if those were made to correct problems.
If there is any of our work that is proprietary, it is our raw data. We the surveyor are the only one qualified to weigh its worth to the end product and should be considered for our eyes only.
All these forms of data are simply another tool used to produce your product just as the ink on the paper it is placed to create your product.
You can pull out all the old papers and digital files you want, to real way to show what is on the ground after it is over is to shoot it again, make a new survey and show everyone that what you did is what it is and that the results will come out the same every time or within reason and when done correctly by whatever means.
0.02
> We collect the back sight as a check at the beginning and end of every setup. If the gun is in the same spot for several hundred points we grab a shot every hundred points or so. It makes catching and correcting problems easier.
Aloha, Bionicman:
I have a bad habit of not checking at the end of every setup. Fortunately, I don't anything serious mostly practice topo. I am rectifying this now. Great idea of doing one check after several hundred points! Thanks
> I will use stake to point and take a shot on the point to see if I am shooting the correct point and to check myself and the setup at each end.
>
Aloha, A. Harris:
All your inputs are very educational for me. I do use the stake to a point routine after each setup.
Thanks
> yswami if you are setting out from a known control point and using a a known back sight BS control point I periodically "set out" out the BS to ensure that the tripod is firm as the software displays the delta x,y and z, If you see a horizontal creep in delta x, the BS azimuth then depending on your instrument time to reset BS azimuth.
>
> I usually add a letter to an existing control station number, so when subsequently tying into one of the control points that identifier is retained as a point. If you can see a lot of control points you can number a previously observed point say originally 7, so then then add say A then add station observed from say 2 so recorded tie becomes 7A2.
>
> RADU
Aloha, Radu:
Thanks!
> We do not store the back sight .. But the raw file holds all the information from the back sight .if you need to ever fix something it's there ..we use the raw file to generate points in the office.. Point point file from the data collector is unused .
Aloha, DJames:
I never used the raw data file so far. I always export the the point as .CSV then import it into my computer. I have to admit the when I open the raw data file it is a bit intimidating for a rookie like me!B-)
> If I recall from your previous posts, you're running TDS survey pro. If that's the case there is a built in check BS function within all the routines which doesn't require a sideshot. I don't remember if you have to store it but it is definitely in the raw data.
Aloha, Ralph:
Yes I use SurveyPro. You are correct it has build it check for BS. By angle or by distance are the two options. The newer version have an option to skip this check. But I always check and there after I normally do the stake out routine to verify the back sight point again.
Thanks and good memory--you remembered what software I am using!!
> 1 point, 1 point number.
>
> I store checks as the same number.
Aloha, Dave: Could you please elaborate on this?
One point, one point number = each point with unique point number? Correct?
SurveyPro does not allow duplicate point numbers. How do you store the checks as the same number?
Thank you!
> We store the back site check shots with their own F2F code. They come into the drawing in a separate layer and the person processing the data can take a quick look to make sure there aren't any obvious blunders, then just turn the layer off and move on.
Aloha, James:
This is a great idea. I am just exploring point codes with my software. Thanks!
> > We store the back site check shots with their own F2F code. They come into the drawing in a separate layer and the person processing the data can take a quick look to make sure there aren't any obvious blunders, then just turn the layer off and move on.
>
> I like to store them all too. I find it easier than sifting through the raw file. I set up my field book with 4 columns.
>
> Shot type Point # H.I. Description
> TO 1001 1.300 Caissons
> QC 1075 0.100 BS Check
> LO 1076 0.100 Anchor bolt
> QC 1099 0.100 BS Check
> LO 1100 0.100 Anchor bolt
> QC 1123 0.100 BS Check
>
> TO means topo, QC, quality control and LO layout. It gets pretty easy to go over the surveyed data.
>
> Sorry about the column formatting, not too sure how to make it pretty.
>
> The software has a pretty useful command to move point attributes, so not much of an issue to have multiple shots on basically the same point, +/- dust.
Aloha, James:
Thanks for the great example! Thank you for sharing!
> > All it did was create a load of point numbers for the same point with coordinates that fall within the size of a BB or at most a dime.
> :-/ :bad:
> As James Fleming describes below, use your F2F to send the check shots to a check shot layer. Then keep that layer turned off except when checking your check shots.
>
> During the last 3 month I have discovered 2 major (3' +/-) busts in topo data because of check shots.
Aloha, Mark:
Thank you for additional thoughts! I am following yours and A. Harris' comments. While I will never have to deal with legal issue for what I do. It was very educational discussion! Thanks!
It is getting very common to see firms not use (or even store) raw data. When I cannot find a place to work where the data is processed and evaluated prior to use I will retire or go solo.
I've been doing this 35 years in 11 states and 9 countries. The one constant is that nobody is perfect. A Decent raw data file with solid field procedure will catch the Ine it able mistakes...
Aloha, Tom
Exactly the same here. Check shots have their own point number and layer.
It is always pleasant to see a post start out with “aloha”. It brightens my day.
A lot of good replies here for you to review. But, the more principal matter is realizing the important aspect of checking your work repeatedly both in the field and office.
Some field software does have backsite check routines or you can tie to your backsite. You can do one both depending on the size of project data being acquired. Sometimes, it is one of those days as they say with the instrument person so you want to conduct additional.
When we stored the point, it was labeled with AKA(also known as) so point 42 check shot point was labeled AKA42. After using the point in cadd, then the “AKA” points were culled from the drawing.
> It is always pleasant to see a post start out with “aloha”. It brightens my day.
> A lot of good replies here for you to review. But, the more principal matter is realizing the important aspect of checking your work repeatedly both in the field and office.
> Some field software does have backsite check routines or you can tie to your backsite. You can do one both depending on the size of project data being acquired. Sometimes, it is one of those days as they say with the instrument person so you want to conduct additional.
> When we stored the point, it was labeled with AKA(also known as) so point 42 check shot point was labeled AKA42. After using the point in cadd, then the “AKA” points were culled from the drawing.
Aloha, Robert:
It sure brightens my bright day even more to read your post about Aloha.
There are a lot of ways the meaning of Aloha explained. My favorite is by Kauila Clark
"A presence which can't be seen, touched or heard but is expressed from the center of one's being to all of creation, knowing the unknowable, expressing the universal, it is found in all things and it is the connection of all things, it is known as Aloha."
You are correct Robert, a lot of suggestions here for me to incorporate. I love your AKA prefix for the point label. This incorporated with point codes and layers will have very manageable data. It is apparent to me at this point if the same person doing the field and office work then several checks during the field work should suffice. Saving one or two check points won't be a big deal. But if the field crew hands over the data to someone in the office continue with data processing, then saving all the checks seems extremely important.
It definitely clear that there is only one rigid rule--Wisdom! ( Wisdom = Timely Application of Knowledge) 😉
May you day and week filled with the spirit of Aloha!
Yoginatha
After reading all of this, I seem to be an anomaly. I always call a point by its only name (or number), whether shooting it as a BS, FS, a check point, or closing a traverse. Seems like I am unique in that, except maybe Dave Karoly above. Also, I usually give points unique identifiers between jobs, instead of using 1 or T1 or 1000 on each and every job, except for points that are topo shots, for example.
Some jobs (deformation surveys), I might shoot the BS 50 times (during the rounds to each of the monitored points). To me, that is just more data that can be used in the adjustment.
Also, I have never downloaded a coordinate file from the data collector, I always use the raw data (Trimble .dc or .job) and process the raw data.
I feel that the survey controller software gives plenty of ways to check repeat observations to a point without having to give it a new name and doing an inverse.
I would be interested to know if anyone else operates this way, I know from experience (and have ranted about it before) that most give points new names when shooting an existing point, like traverse closing for example.
It depends upon the data collection software and the preferences of the licensee in responsible charge. Most DC software I've worked with will allow you to record a BS check without otherwise interrupting your workflow - that is, not require yo to exit the topo collection or stakeout routine you are working in. If that BS check records all raw data associated with the check shot, then IMO, also storing a point is an unnecessary redundancy. But when looking at a CAD screen, looking at stored check points overlayed on the control point can be a convenient quick visual check.
With many of the older DC software, I think early versions of TDS, the SDR33, and Lieca, it was easier to collect a point as a BS check required you to exit the routine you were working in, exit out one or two menu levels, go back in a couple menu levels in the traversing routines, make your check, reset zero if needed, remake your check, exit back out a couple menu levels, and then go back in one or two menu levels to what you were doing before making the check. Way easier to store a point and move on if your zero hadn't drifted off too much.
Aloha, John: It is still not clear to me how you and Dave K. work...
> "After reading all of this, I seem to be an anomaly. I always call a point by its only name (or number), whether shooting it as a BS, FS, a check point, or closing a traverse. Seems like I am unique in that, except maybe Dave Karoly above."
Could you please spell it out for me John? I am still in Survey 101 class!
Let say you are occupying point #100 (labeled GIN SPIKE) and shooting point #200 (labeled 1/2" PIPE) as your BS. You also have another visible known point #300 (labeled 5/8" REBAR). After taking about couple hundred shots you wanted to verify your setup.
1. Do you save the shot to your BS Pt#200 or your check pt#300 that you are doing for verification?
2. If yes, do you give it a unique number and label? Or you...
> Also, I have never downloaded a coordinate file from the data collector, I always use the raw data (Trimble .dc or .job) and process the raw data.
I am coming across a lot of the usage of Raw data file--which I am not familiar with yet...Is there any harm importing coordinate data in CSV file format?
>
> I feel that the survey controller software gives plenty of ways to check repeat observations to a point without having to give it a new name and doing an inverse.
>
Survey Pro the software that I use allow a check with an option to save data.
Thanks and Aloha!
Data that is to be included in a network always gets the same number. Topo back sight and check shots get a nul descriptor and a new number.
Our control and boundary ties are taken as sets so the instrument re initializes during topo. The number and description keep the topo shots out of the network and make data evaluation easy. The have also saved our bacon when recovering from mistakes.
There are a million ways to skin the cat. The trick is picking the right one for the occasion....
We also stick with one point = one name, and checking the raw data and processing reports is one of the steps to check each others work here.
Our field software lets us specify what kind of shot we take, that reflects in the reports and during processing you can easily disable measurements or change it's status to check.
Chr.
