Currently I am a registered civil engineer (LA, TX, FL) and certified GIS professional. I have been doing engineering and GIS for 24 years. During this time I have performed many surveying-ish tasks, such as photogrammetry, mapping, and topo surveys. In LA, as long as I don't do boundary surveys, all of the work I perform also falls under the practice of engineering. I would really like to become a PLS, but I don't have any experience with boundary surveying. My company doesn't have a PLS and I have never worked under/with a PLS at my company. I have worked with PLSs from other companies on various projects. Do you think I should pursue PLS registration somehow, or just be content with PE and GISP?
andrewm, post: 356688, member: 10888 wrote: Do you think I should pursue PLS registration somehow, or just be content with PE and GISP?
I think you should do what ever makes you happy.
My motto:
If'n it ain't fun, I ain't doing it.
I hope you have a great day, I know I will!
Dougie
Unless you can get the experience factor built up on Land Surveying, it might be tough. It seems like you would have to put in several years @ a lesser-pay level to get legit time in under a licensed PLS. My assumption would be that you currently make more than a lot of PLSs in other large engineering firms.
Having said that, I would think having dual licenses might be an advantage. If you can find a way to get your time in and still support your family or lifestyle, I would say jump on it. (I don't know the regulations for your state, but would say that most would require some hard-time in boundary and boundary evaluation.
What Tom said. Being a licensed surveyor isn't just about being an expert measurer or understanding datums and projections. Its knowing boundary law and surveying boundaries accurately that makes you a LLS.
Best of luck, but if you won't love it it's not worth it.
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I have a PE colleague that fell into the same boat. He was actually in good contact with everyone involved. His first application to the Oklahoma board was rejected due to lack of the quintessential 'boundary' experience, but he expected such; learning a few details after he had made his app.
His reapplication contained examples of his work that had been done in concert with a couple of licensed surveyors, but weren't part of his firm. It also contained two semesters of Public Domain education. He also had a number of letters from licensed surveyors vouching for his experience. I believe all in all it took 18 months, but he was finally allowed to sit for the exam and passed.
This has been almost ten years ago. I don't know if it has changed, but at that time our statutes concerning eligibility had a clause that stated "..or otherwise approved by the board " when it listed the education and experience requirements.
My point being, go ahead and apply. Hopefully the board reviewing your app may be able to understand your unique position and make a judgment call. If rejected, at least you will know why.
Good luck.
andrewm, post: 356688, member: 10888 wrote: I have worked with PLSs from other companies on various projects.
Get involved with the boundary on those projects with those people. Do it on your own time with your employers permission. (you could earn some brownie points too)
Many have used that kind of experience as part of their qualifying experience.
Take the LSIT exam now it you are eligible, or as soon as you can.
You may find you have a passion for Land Surveying. The financial sacrifice of changing may be well worth it for you too.
I should have been rich and famous, but I love surveying. (that is More rich, and More famous)
I'm part owner of a small environmental consulting firm. I'm also the supervising engineer. I would have to get experience while still working here. It's certainly possible to gain that experience just not sure how practical. Thanks for the insights.
I did it but I chose to do it right. I returned to school nights and picked up 30 plus additional survey credits beyond the two courses I had for my BS CE. I had quite a bit of surveyingish experience but was lacking in field time surveying. Having done numerous subdivision projects over the years I had sufficient office experience. In PA under the rules I applied, I needed 5 years boundary survey experience, with a minimum of 25% in field or office work. To get that 15 months in the field I worked for a surveyor part time and it took about 5 years to get that 15 months. I finished that up about the time I finished college courses.
I traveled 60 miles each way for evening courses at NJIT. Today there are much more online courses available, but do not expect it is a short, quick or cheap endeavor. I estimate the time lost in not doing engineering work far exceeded the cost of the education by a factor of ten.
Carefully read the laws of your three states and pick the easier path to start. Once you become a PLS in one state you may still need additional experience and/or education for another. I was 22 years out of college when I planned my path and 6 years to complete it. Because of Board prejudice against engineers simply becoming surveyors, the application process was 1.5 years long, but I passed all tests on the first try with high scores. I do not regret the time or cost.
email if you have questions.
Paul in PA
Here's highlights of the requirements in La:
For applicants for professional land surveyor licensure under å¤909.A.1 of these rules, the ÛÏverifiable record of four years or more of combined office and field experience in land surveying including two years or more of progressive experience on land surveying projects under the supervision of a professional land surveyorÛ must be gained by the time of application.
Professional land surveyor applicants must demonstrate a substantial portion of their experience was spent in charge of work related to property conveyance and/or boundary line determination.
30 surveying related credits required, some are in the engineering field.
From the LA Board site: "courses involving land surveying, mapping, and real property" For instance I took AutoCAD and Real Estate Law at local community colleges. Overall my credits were from 2 Universities and 4 Community/County Colleges.
Penn State on line has 6 or 7 three credit surveying courses, that is 18 and doable in two years. So start your education outline now, what you have and what and where you can get more. Do not ignore community colleges as you have an ABET degree already? and just need surveying courses, based on how the Board interprets the law. Some of your GIS courses should also count.
Carefully read the requirements. In PA, if one applies for the FS exam and passes under certain parts of the law the experience clock is reset to zero. I turned down an early offer from the PA Board to just take the FS because I had too much existing experience to lose. I had to stick to the path that allowed me to take both exams at the same time.
From the LA Board site:
APPROVED SURVEYING COURSES Updated: August 2015
INSTITUTION COURSE # COURSE DESCRIPTION CLASSIFICATION CREDIT
BATON ROUGE COMMUNITY COLLEGE ENGR207 SURVEYING S Full
ENGR208 ADVANCED SURVEYING S Full
ENGR209 LOUISIANA SURVEY LAW R Full
DELGADO COMMUNITY COLLEGE RLST161Û1WA REAL ESTATE LAW R Full
RLST261Û1WA PRINCIPLES/REAL ESTATE R Full
LA. STATE UNIVERSITY CE3500 PLANE SURVEYING AND MEASUREMENTS S *
CE3600 PRINCIPLES OF HIGHWAY & TRAFFIC ENGINEERING S Paral (1) ÛÊÛÊ
CE3740 HISTORY OF LAND TITLES IN LOUISIANA S Full
CE4500 GEODETIC AND PHOTOGRAMMETRIC SURVEYING M **
CE4520 ADVANCED SURVEYING S Full
CE4530 CONTROL SURVEYING WITH GPS S Full
CE4550 BOUNDARY SURVEYING S/B Full
CE4560 ENGINEERING APPLICATIONS TO REMOTE SENSING M Full
CE4600 GEOMETRIC DESIGN OF HIGHWAYS & AIRPORTS S Paral (2) ÛÊÛÊ
CE4750 PROFESSIONAL ISSUES & CONCEPT DESIGN IN CIVIL ENGINEERING S Partial (1)
CM1010 CONSTRUCTION GRAPHICS & NOMENCLATURE M Partial (2)
CM1020 ENGINEERING GRAPHICS FOR MECHANICAL ENGINEERS M Full
CM1030 ENGINEERING GRAPHICS M Full
CM3100 CONSTRUCTION SURVEYING & LAYOUT S *
CM4206 ADV. LAYOUT & SURVEYING S Provide syllabus
EGR1001 ENGINEERING GRAPHICS M Full
FIN3351 REAL ESTATE PRINCIPLES R Full
GEOG2039 CARTOGRAPHIC DRAFTING AND GRAPHIC PRESENTATION M Full
GEOG2040 GEOSPATIAL TECHNOLOGIES M Partial (2)
GEOG4019 AERIAL PHOTO INTERPRETATIONÛCULTURAL FEATURES M **ÛÊ
GEOG4020 AERIAL PHOTO INTERPRETATION Û PHYSICAL FEATURES M ÛÊ
GEOG4040 COMPUTER CARTOGRAPHY M Full
GEOG4044 COMPUTER CARTOGRAPHY M Full
GEOG4045 ENVIRONMENTAL REMOTE SENSING M Partial (1)
GEOG4047 GEOGRAPHIC INFORMATION SYSTEMS (SECTION 3) M Full
GEOG4049 ADVANCED COMPUTER CARTOGRAPHY M Full
RNR 2001 DENDROLOGY M Partial (1)
RNR3004/7029 FOREST PHOTOGRAMMETRY GIS & GPS M Full
*A total of 4 semester credit hours will be given for both courses
**A total of 4 semester credit hours will be given for both courses
ÛÊA total of 4 semester credit hours will be given for both courses
ÛÊÛÊNo credit allowed for these two courses if claiming credit for CE4520
LSU ALEXANDRIA BUS3201 BUSINESS LAW I R Full
Paul in PA
andrewm, post: 356718, member: 10888 wrote: Here's highlights of the requirements in La:
For applicants for professional land surveyor licensure under å¤909.A.1 of these rules, the ÛÏverifiable record of four years or more of combined office and field experience in land surveying including two years or more of progressive experience on land surveying projects under the supervision of a professional land surveyorÛ must be gained by the time of application.
Professional land surveyor applicants must demonstrate a substantial portion of their experience was spent in charge of work related to property conveyance and/or boundary line determination.
Hire a surveyor, expand your business model and put on the surveying student hat for about 4 years. The boundary experience is never ending and is definitely not something you will pick up with a little job shadowing though. It takes time and various experiences to be able to review evidence, records and proper procedures then apply rules of law that govern how you are establishing the boundary. I wish you the best of luck with your decision. If you want it bad enough. set up the plan and execute.
Your desire to be a land surveyor, reminds me of a story.
This guy had spent many years in the military, dreaming of retirement. When he finally retired, he was out for 6 months. Then they found him down at the re-enlistment office. Trying to re inlist. "What's wrong with you", the recruiter cried.
To which he replied, "I'm gettin' back in.there's nobody in charge, out here!"
Surveyors mitsakes are monumented. Doctors mistakes are burried. Lawyer's mistakes are overruled.
Many times, because mistakes are relied upon, they come under the "concrete principle" the longer they stay in place, the harder they are to fix. This is where we get adverse possession. In Arkansas, 7 years is all that's required. (along with open, notorious, hostile, etc)
My point is, in engineering, there tends to be more oversight. In surveying, it can be kinda loose. And some surveyors do good right work, and some need trimmed, and a few just need culled.
It's difficult when some don't see the mess they make, as a mess.
Andrew,
I can't second the suggestion of hiring an LS enough. This will be a long haul journey so you better like each other. .
As for the money, it will be what you make it. While there is no denying the potential earnings for an Engineer are generally higher than for a Surveyor, I don't see that as an absolute. A solid PELS can build a formidable model.
The bottom line is will it be enjoyable for you? After 3 plus decades this Profession still gives me back ten fold what I put into it. It's fun. It doesn't matter if I'm crunching numbers with half the alphabet in them, reading script from before the Civil War or cracking rock base to get a hub in straight. The variety and challenge engages my mind and pushes my body. I know I'm capable of making more money but having more fun would be difficult. If that is how you feel follow it.
Good luck, Tom