Hello I recently sent in my application for the P.S. after which I called Land surveyors workshops. The lady I spoke with was very professional and knowledgeable. However the course (taught by a Mr. Keen)while very reasonable at $350 when coupled with the associated travel fees I am looking at about $1000- $1200, big money in my recession plagued neck of the woods. I would like to hear from some end users that have used this course or any other course. I dont mind paying but like everything in business you have to look at it from a cost/benefit point of view ... Land Surveyors Seminars (Ted Madsen)is much closer(no travel) but I have not heard many positive reviews.
Kinda depends on what state your in
> Hello I recently sent in my application for the P.S. after which I called Land surveyors workshops. The lady I spoke with was very professional and knowledgeable. However the course (taught by a Mr. Keen)while very reasonable at $350 when coupled with the associated travel fees I am looking at about $1000- $1200, big money in my recession plagued neck of the woods. I would like to hear from some end users that have used this course or any other course. I dont mind paying but like everything in business you have to look at it from a cost/benefit point of view ... Land Surveyors Seminars (Ted Madsen)is much closer(no travel) but I have not heard many positive reviews.
First, it is good to know that Vickie was able to help you. She does an excellent job as the LSW Office manager and I know I'd be lost without her.
Second, here is a link to a 1 hour webinar I did for exam candidates. The idea was to go over some general advice for anyone studying for one of the licensing exams. There is no cost or obligation to watch the webinar. You do have to put in a name and email address but we promise to never share that information with anyone else.
Finally, let me say this. There are no magic bullets. The only way to succeed at these very rigorous exams is hard work and preparation on your part. No exam review class (ours or anyone else's) is a substitute for that hard work. We can give you a boost that can make the difference between passing or not. For those who do not spend the time and effort up front, well, no review will help.
Larry P
NCPLS and President
Land Surveyors Workshops
You Are Either Ready, Or You Are Not Ready
You give no indication on your state, your education and your years of experience?
Are you simply taking the PS having previously passed the FS or are you taking both?
The fact that you have been accepted to take the PS means that you told some state board that you were ready, was that statement a lie?
Since money seems to be a problem, find and take locally a State Law review course. That is one thing that education and experience may not have taught you. In certain states you may also want to take stormwater review courses, which are given locally.
As I said "You Are Either Ready, Or You Are Not Ready".
Take the test and find out.
I will not wish you luck, as there is no need in the surveying world for lucky test takers.
Paul in PA
For those who do not spend the time and effort up front, well, no review will help.
This says it all.
Questions For Larry P ?
Do you keep records on the numbers of your review course takers that have taken it prior to the first exam versus those who take it to fill in a weakness they have found after failing the first or even second time around?
Can you render an opinion on the numbers who are actually taking your courses as a review versus those who take it to learn?
In your application do you request background information on education which might be relavent to the above question?
Have you had many repeat takers? as I am unaware if you have courses with different emphasis?
Paul in PA
Good luck!
Don
Calm Down Paul
Paul
He asked a question that doesn't require a thorough background check, resume and a list of references for us to answer.;-)
SWAG,
I have no information to answer your original question but LARRY's response was spot on. If you would like some study material shoot me an email or publish yours in your profile.
Cheers
Jered ?
Given some additional information I would make other suggestions.
I do not waiver on the "Good Luck" response.
Without other data, one can learn best from failure.
Paul in PA
You Are Either Ready, Or You Are Not Ready
> The fact that you have been accepted to take the PS means that you told some state board that you were ready, was that statement a lie?
Your state may vary, but I don't remember having to state I was ready. I stated my experience and education, and the board told me if I was ready or not.
Questions For Larry P ?
> Do you keep records on the numbers of your review course takers that have taken it prior to the first exam versus those who take it to fill in a weakness they have found after failing the first or even second time around? >
We do not keep records like that. In some ways it would bother me if I were asked if I had failed the exam prior to coming to a review class. While data like this might be interesting, it does nothing to change the material presented. So we do not ask.
> Can you render an opinion on the numbers who are actually taking your courses as a review versus those who take it to learn?
>
Learning is learning. In my mind there is no distinction between a course as a review and as a learning opportunity. I do stick to my original point which is those who begin and end their studies with any review class are unlikely to succeed.
> In your application do you request background information on education which might be relavent to the above question?
>
Our application involves whether or not the check clears or the credit card is approved. This is not kindergarten. We are dealing with people who believe themselves ready to become licensed professionals. I do not choose to become some sort of guardian or gate keeper of secret information. For those who want to dedicate themselves to achieving the goal of passing the test(s), we will help in any way we can.
> Have you had many repeat takers? as I am unaware if you have courses with different emphasis?
>
> Paul in PA
There have been a few repeat takers. But again, we do not keep detailed statistics on this sort of thing. Often I can tell within the first 5 minutes of a phone call whether someone has good odds of passing or whether they would be better served to find a different line of work. The gentleman who began this thread gave us every reason to believe that he will be successful. Why? He is doing everything he can now to be prepared for the October exam. He is investing the time and energy necessary to succeed. He is not sitting helplessly and saying "either I am ready or I'm not".
The state boards to not easily hand out licenses, nor should they. Anyone wanting to get the title of Professional has to work for it.
I hope that answers your questions Paul.
Larry P
The state I am applying to is Georgia but am mostly wanting to concentrate on the NCEES portion. I took the LSIT 4 Years ago and I have a B.S. in Surveying and Geomatics. I started studying about a month ago and have began purchasing additional books (Blacks law, Def of Surv terms etc). When I took the LSIT I passed it the first time but was blown away by the variety of questions. I did not feel that my studying had prepared me at all. Just my knowledge obtained from four years of school and work experience. I understand that this is a review course designed to give the prepared test taker an edge. I will be a prepared test taker but I also want an edge.
If you have enough experience to take the P&P exam then it shouldn't be too bad. I took the GA exams in Oct 2010 and the Hydrology exam is the toughest. Don't forget the "green book". Good luck.
You Are Either Ready, Or You Are Not Ready
> The fact that you have been accepted to take the PS means that you told some state board that you were ready, was that statement a lie?
>
> Since money seems to be a problem, find and take locally a State Law review course. That is one thing that education and experience may not have taught you. In certain states you may also want to take stormwater review courses, which are given locally.
>
> As I said "You Are Either Ready, Or You Are Not Ready".
SWAG, if I comprehend what he said, has applied, not necessarily been accepted.
Now he is trying to better prepare himself in the event that he sits for the exam.
Seems like something that should be encouraged.
The suggestion regarding a local State Law review course is a good one if available. He also might see if his state professional organization has LS-LSIT review courses. The ones I have taken in the past were quite valuable in that they emphasized topics that were likely to be on the test. But they in and of themselves won't prepare you to take the test.
Study, Study Study.....
You may not be ready Now, but you can Get Ready.
Good Luck!
DJJ
What I did was:
1. Take several semester college courses. It sounds like you have this covered.
2. Study on my own for several months.
3. Use good exam taking strategy; don't study the day or evening before and especially the morning of.
I didn't take any weekend seminar courses because I don't feel the nature of a weekend seminar allows for very good stickage of the information presented. It sort of works in Aviation because they just drill-drill-drill the actual published multiple choice questions from the FAA then the students take the exam at the end of the day on Sunday. It won't work very well in Surveying because we don't have the actual published questions and usually the test is given at some time in the future.
You Are Either Ready, Or You Are Not Ready
I think Paul deserves a smack-down for this abusive post.
People are not computing machines; you can't just open the top of their head and pour the knowledge in.
I think the semester college course works well because homework study is required over time and there is time to allow the learning to percolate. Plus the student is motivated to learn because he knows there will be tests.
When I taught ground school over a period of weeks there was a quiz every class. I don't quiz for grading purposes; the reason is to force the student to have to retrieve the information. This makes it stick better. In self study I quiz myself.
Questions For Larry P ?
Well I am a little embarrassed to have been practically asking for references in front of the man that owns the business, I do apologize.
However since you are on here I would like to run something by you.
When speaking with your secretary I asked about a review course in a webinar format. I would be very willing to go this route if it was offered, and I feel that others would as well. Like I said above the travel costs ($4 gas or airline tickets) are the only cost prohibitive aspects of the deal, the course itself is more than reasonable.
I agree, Dave
There was no call for inferring that SWAG might have bent or stretched the truth on his application.
Paul, you were way out of line.
There is also nothing wrong with an applicant asking about review courses. There is nothing in any of his posts suggesting that he thinks a review course is the place to go to learn all the things he missed in his previous education and experience.
Many of us have utilized review courses prior to taking the licensing exam. Being one of the most important, if not the most important exam one will take in one's career, finding and attending a good review course is a responsible and professional course of action. Just as good professionals often do in-house rehearsals for important proposals as a matter of full preparation for a professional presentation, one would be wise to take a course which REVIEWS the topics which may be expected to appear on an exam.
My history of exam taking: I took the LSIT after 10+ years experience and at the end of my sophomore year at OIT. Being in college was my ongoing review course. I finished and reviewed my answers for both the morning and afternoon portions in less than half the allotted time. Simple test. Passed on first and only attempt.
I took the OR LS in the spring of my senior year at OIT. 4 hrs NCEES Principles and Practice, finished in 2 1/2 hours. 2 hrs PLSS, finished in 1 1/2 hrs. 2 hr State specific essay format, finished in 1 hr and 50 minutes with my head spinning too much to review anything. In 1995, OR was still providing the examinee with percentage scores. NCEES portions were easy, mid and high 90s. State specific a little tougher, mid 80s.
I took CA PLS in 1996 and had little idea what to expect. At that time, CA used no part of the NCEES, but had an 8 hr state specific and a take home exam. The state specific at that time was a combination of multiple guess, fill in the blank, short answer, and essay. A lot more calculation than I would have expected on a professional level exam, and it covered the wide spectrum of survey practice.
The review class I took from Pacific Land Seminars (Paul Cuomo's seminar) was invaluable because it was taught by some of the top PLSs in the state, many of whom had not only taken the exam but had also been at one time involved in grading or development of past exams. The focus was not to teach the students new and unfamiliar material, but to focus the student on the topics that were likely to appear and at the level of complexity likely to be on the exam. They recommended and provided useful reference materials, reviewed effective and efficient methods of locating information within ones references, and reviewed the most efficient methods of certain calculations and other problem solving techniques where multiple methods exist.
Even though I easily passed every exam I had taken for the LSIT, the OR PLS, and in college over the immediately previous few years, taking Paul Cuomo's review class probably made the difference between my passing on the first attempt in CA vs passing on my second attempt. The difference was in knowing what types of questions to expect and what topics would most likely be covered. It helped me to focus my studies more effectively.
So the admonition "You are either ready or you're not" is only true to a point, and only fully true once the time for study is over.
You can be ready in terms of learned knowledge, experience, and skill, but not ready in terms of focus or knowing what to expect. That last part is what a review course provides preparation for as long as the other parts are in place.
SWAG, as to your question about whether a review course is worth the cost: If you go with one that has been around for a while and has been utilized by more than a few licensed surveyors in your state, it is likely one that can make the difference between passing or just missing the cutoff score on your first attempt. How many times are you willing to take the exam? How much is it worth to you to do something that will likely give you a 10% to 20% advantage? That's what I figure the review course I took gave me. That, and my CA LS 1 year earlier than I probably would have gotten it otherwise.
> > I didn't take any weekend seminar courses because I don't feel the nature of a weekend seminar allows for very good stickage of the information presented.
It depends on the focus of the seminar and the aims of the student, Dave. See my post above, right below your "Smack down Paul" post.
If the goals of the student and the teachers are aligned on concentrating on what is likely to appear on the exam, efficient retrieval of reference information, and cursory review of topics rather than on learning or presenting new material, then there is a lot of value in a review course.
"Stickage" of information should not be the goal. It should already be "stuck". If the information is already "stuck" in your brain, but not sufficiently organized for the effort of the exam, it will be unnecessarily difficult for you. Focus, organization and efficient retrieval of the information should be the goal of a good review course and of the student attending one.