NCEES 2016 Pass Rates

Paul in PA, post: 409093, member: 236 wrote: Fundamentals of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 287, 46% passing = 132
Repeat Takers, 179, 25% passing = 45
Total FS passers = 177

Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 46% passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182

Once having passed the FS the PS passers are in range with the FS passers.

Fundamentals of Surveying Exam Failers
First time Takers, 287, 54% failing = 155
Repeat Takers, 179, 75% failing = 134

Personally I believe, after three failures it should be necessary to re-apply with additional experience and additional education. I might consider the fee being somewhat lower, but the reapplication should occur.

I would have not problem if a reapplication required a board appearance, if not the full board then a special subcommittee of the surveying professionals, secretary and counsel.

Paul in PA

To obtain the initial Certified Flight Instructor, Airplane Single Engine it required over 6 hours of oral examination by an FAA Inspector. That was tough. The California PLS was tough but a walk in the park compared to the CFI. The flight check was a piece of cake, he flew and critiqued my instructing him like he was teaching me how to teach. Flight checks are usually the hard part because you have to demonstrate a list of maneuvers within standards found in the practical test standards booklet.

I passes the LSIT and LS on the first attempt.

Dave Karoly, post: 409099, member: 94 wrote:

I passes the LSIT and LS on the first attempt.

Did you in fact pass the NCEES FS and PS exams?

Per the point of the thread, what is your opinion on addressing failures?

Paul in PA

Paul in PA, post: 409104, member: 236 wrote: Did you in fact pass the NCEES FS and PS exams?

Per the point of the thread, what is your opinion on addressing failures?

Paul in PA

I passed the LSIT in Fall 2001 which I think was the NCEES exam.

I passed the LS in Spring 2002 which was a single exam with a national component.

The answer to the failure rates is more education.

Dave Karoly, post: 409106, member: 94 wrote: I passed the LSIT in Fall 2001 which I think was the NCEES exam.

I passed the LS in Spring 2002 which was a single exam with a national component.

The answer to the failure rates is more education.

Check out your record, as you may well had failed if you had to take the NCEES exams. BTW, what was your education.

Paul in PA

I took the NCEES exams about 15 years ago. I passed FS with an 87, PS with an 89 and State Specific with a 96 as I recall.
My education was limited to seminary and the Dr. Elgin course on boundary law in Missouri. I did obtain a GED at Austin Peay in Kentucky if that counts.
Education comes in many forms. If you really want to learn you will.

"Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 46% passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182"

After a little checking I found out that Fall of 2016 was the first computer based principles exam, hence hence no retakers taking that specific exam. I take it all were counted as first time takers.

Surveying was the first NCEES Principles exam to be computer based and they will slowly pick up computer based testing on all the many engineering disciplines.

If anyone took the PA or other State's PS exam in Fall of 2016, how was the state specific exam handled?

Paul in PA

thebionicman, post: 409116, member: 8136 wrote: I took the NCEES exams about 15 years ago. I passed FS with an 87, PS with an 89 and State Specific with a 96 as I recall.
My education was limited to seminary and the Dr. Elgin course on boundary law in Missouri. I did obtain a GED at Austin Peay in Kentucky if that counts.
Education comes in many forms. If you really want to learn you will.

California doesn't tell us what our score was unless we fail.

Paul in PA, post: 409113, member: 236 wrote: Check out your record, as you may well had failed if you had to take the NCEES exams. BTW, what was your education.

Paul in PA

I don't understand your first sentence? I passed the exams. Whether I would pass or fail today is a matter of pure speculation.

I am a college dropout. That used to bother me but now it's a matter of pride especially when it bothers educated snobs like the CSUS President's wife at a function. I sat down at the President's table because I don't respect boundaries and no one told me I couldn't. She asked me about my college education to open the conversation and I told her, she dropped me instantly and turned away which I found amusing because she is threatened by me...I joined the club without meeting their artificial requirements. That isn't supposed to happen. I bet she will never drop Bill Gates like that.

I spent a lot of money to put my son through that place, no student loans, scholarships and cash.

Paul in PA, post: 409122, member: 236 wrote: If anyone took the PA or other State's PS exam in Fall of 2016, how was the state specific exam handled?

Paul,

I took the fall PA exam. It was the same paper exam as used during in recent years and given at the same time/locations as the PE exam.

One of my crew chiefs took it the same time and didn't pass. When he enquired about scheduling to take it again they told him that they are switching providers to Pearson and as soon as a new exam is available it will be computer based and no longer just available on the old spring/fall cycle.

Dave Karoly, post: 409126, member: 94 wrote: California doesn't tell us what our score was unless we fail.

Oregon, Idaho and Utah give scores. Washington did not.
From what I understand California is a challenge, and a PASS in your letter is reward enough. I hope to find out in spring of 2018. It's the last one on my list...

Paul in PA, post: 409093, member: 236 wrote: Fundamentals of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 287, 46% passing = 132
Repeat Takers, 179, 25% passing = 45
Total FS passers = 177

Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 46% passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182

Once having passed the FS the PS passers are in range with the FS passers.

Fundamentals of Surveying Exam Failers
First time Takers, 287, 54% failing = 155
Repeat Takers, 179, 75% failing = 134

Personally I believe, after three failures it should be necessary to re-apply with additional experience and additional education. I might consider the fee being somewhat lower, but the reapplication should occur.

I would have not problem if a reapplication required a board appearance, if not the full board then a special subcommittee of the surveying professionals, secretary and counsel.

Paul in PA

I think the pass/fail rate has improved.
I remember seeing statistics posted from about 10-15 years ago that showed the pass rate lower in the 30-35 range.

Dave Karoly, post: 409128, member: 94 wrote: I don't understand your first sentence?

Cut him some slack; Paul's first language is engineer. 😉

James Fleming, post: 409134, member: 136 wrote: Cut him some slack; Paul's first language is engineer. 😉

I'm familiar with Engineer because I'm the black sheep of the family...
KAROLY BENNETT T C 10580 DECEASED
KAROLY CHARLES U C 10508 DECEASED
KAROLY DAVID BENNETT L 7849 CLEAR
KAROLY MICHAEL HAMILTON C 34881 CLEAR

FWIW - I don't have too much of a problem with those numbers given the recent changes to the exams and the lack of prep class material aimed at the new exams.

The first time pass rate for the CPA exam runs around 50%. The landscape architecture boards have four separate exams, each with a 66% or so pass rate, so generally only about 1/3 of first time exam takes pass all four parts on the first cycle. A state like NY that has rather liberal requirements allowing foreign educated candidates to sit for the Bar Exam has a pass rate in the mid 40's (about 66% in recent years for graduates of ABA accredited schools).

I'd be concerned if the pass rates raised much above 66%. A professional surveyors license isn't a participation award. If every individual who acquires the educational and experience requirements to sit for the exam passes after one or two attempts you might as well do away with the exam.

I'm fine with these pass/fail rates. I think the exams should be more difficult, or atleast more than the ones I passed. The FS (I took it in 2006 or 2007) was easily passed by anyone with a little surveying experience and a bit of math background. The PS was nearly as easy and I remember nothing spectacular about it. (Circa 2010).

Now Cali's PS examination was difficult, I truly enjoyed the difficulty. One of the things I've noticed with recent grads or exam takers, they rely WAAAY too much on computers/data collectors. Give them a simple calculator and ask them any trig calcs and they are stuck. "Why do we need to know triangles?" *headdesk*

I think a stronger focus on the math, geometry, algebra, and statistics, should be required on the exams.

Notwithstanding some excellent surveyors who are awful test takers I think failing any of the exams three times should raise a red flag. The NCEES exams and most state exams are not very hard. By the time a test taker has failed twice they should have a good idea of what they still need to learn. I don't think its good practice to let people keep trying until they get lucky. Some personal attention by the boards could weed these people out and provide a path forward for those that can become good surveyors, but have trouble with standardized tests.

Raybies, post: 409142, member: 9029 wrote:

I think a stronger focus on the math, geometry, algebra, and statistics, should be required on the exams.

Maybe in states that still allow licensure by experience only, but an applicants academic record should assure the board that these basic skills have been mastered. An academic high achiever should graduate high school with all the required math to be a surveyor. I agree that the tests should be harder, but I don't think math skills is where the new emphasis should be. I don't think I've run across many screw ups in modern surveys due to bad math skills. Knowing when to apply math and what math to apply to a problem is a different matter.

James Fleming, post: 409131, member: 136 wrote: Paul,

I took the fall PA exam. It was the same paper exam as used during in recent years and given at the same time/locations as the PE exam.

One of my crew chiefs took it the same time and didn't pass. When he enquired about scheduling to take it again they told him that they are switching providers to Pearson and as soon as a new exam is available it will be computer based and no longer just available on the old spring/fall cycle.

I assume you mean you only took the PA portion. The Fall 2016 national PS was computer based, i.e. a Piearson exam. Did you notice that no PS takers were in the room?

I would say once they have the largest PE group on computer, the remaining paper test site locations will begin to diminish. In fact they may already have diminished since all FE and FS exams are now computer based and sites are only used for one day.

Raybies, post: 409142, member: 9029 wrote: I think a stronger focus on the math, geometry, algebra, and statistics, should be required on the exams.

Statistics, maybe. But as aliquot says, how many of the problems discussed on this forum are due to bad math, and how many are either disregard of boundary law principles? More law in the education and more on the test.

aliquot, post: 409147, member: 2486 wrote: Knowing when to apply math and what math to apply to a problem

Yes