elginduley posts [msg=98914]original thread[/msg] about his conflicted thoughts on continuing in surveying due to a degree requirement in Florida.
I am not looking to start the age old degree/experience discussion, but I would like for those who have a 4 year degree to point out some of the beneficial information you may have gained as a result of the degree. If you can specifically address his concern of "If I could take classes that were specifically about what I do and not have to go through the electives, liberal arts, etc (read = $ for the school) then absolutely, school first."
I am very glad to have taken several of the electives I had.
The strictly surveying coursework was great. However, it was in electives that I got my first exposure to GIS and Urban Planning.
Statistical analysis was certainly taught in many of the surveying course, but the full semester class on statistics was an elective.
Programming classes and technical writing classes (don't judge the writing skills based on a message board post) were electives intertwined with all of the surveying classes. However, the full semester spent on the specific study of the subjects was were I learned them. They were applied in the surveying course in support of the surveying content.
That is off the top of my head, but I'm sure there were more electives that really supported the core surveying curriculum.
When looking at the proposed course outline for a 4 year degree, there are often times that a specific math or writing class is a prerequisite to the course you are really anxious to take. The reason being that the skill set developed in the prerequisite will be applied in the course you want to take. Some people may not necessarily need the prerequisite to get by.
Not every course I studied is something I retained and still use. So I can certainly understand that you don't want to have to take a left-handed basket weaving course.
I am glad I took the economics and business classes that were/are required in some programs and in the programs I studied in (as well as studying in now). The general education/elective classes are the foundation of a well rounded professional.
Thanks for jogging my memory.
The engineering econ class was not strictly surveying, but has been very helpful.
A well educated peron with knowledge in many fields makes a better employee and in general, a better person. I don't think that the requirement to take non-degree electives is just to make money for the school.
I graduated with about 190 credits, versus the 120 or so needed for a BSCE degree. I can't think of any class I would call worthless. I didn't like some of them at the time, but looking back I am glad I did take them all. Electrical engineering, geology, law, survival training, among others.
Personally I found the left-handed basket weaving course most enlightening. There is nothing wrong with a well rounded education. Whether the courses you take are applicable to your occupation isn't necessarily relevant. I think many would agree that we probably have forgotten more than we know anyway.
I agree with your reply to the original post, it was well said!
Forty five years ago we only had three year degree in S OZ , however educators insisted then that we technologists took non examinable art subjects to broaden our education.
I can recommend that philosophy is a great subject and should be studied by all those proposing to enter boundary surveying as you will appreciate the skill of arguing the two sides of a fence!
RADU
This is largely the difference between working at a trade or working at a profession. A trade is all about the product. A profession involves the entire process of understanding complex problems, blending that knowledge with people skills, business management, communication skills, support equipment maintenance and such, then providing a service that has legal implications and liabilities that may extend for decades.
Being an expert at mounting, balancing and aligning tires is one thing. Becoming a party to someone else's most expensive possession is another.
> There is nothing wrong with a well rounded education. Whether the courses you take are applicable to your occupation isn't necessarily relevant.
I (in a state that doesn't currently require a degree) would hire a smart kid (you know your getting older when you refer to college graduates as "kids") with a degree in Liberal Arts over a "run of the mill" candidate with a surveying degree. Of course I'm biased because I was a double major in English & Political Science. Actually, if I had it to do all over again, I would have gone to college here.
When I look at the curriculum of some four year surveying programs (and by no means have I made a comprehensive study) what I find lacking are classes like these offered to engineering and architecture students at the University of Maryland that better prepare them for actual employment:
ARCH 478C Careers in Architecture (3)
Restricted to ARCH majors. Provides an overview of the career development process (assessment, exploration, decision-making, and planning) as it relates to careers in architecture. It will reveal the various careers in architecture, including those within the architectural profession, related disciplines such as engineering, construction, and interiors as well as disciplines of historic preservation, development, and others.
URSP 604 The Planning Process (3)
Problem formulation, goal setting, generating and assessing alternatives, implementation. Group and organizational settings in which planning takes place. Working with committees and communities, conducting meetings, making decisions, and making presentations.
URSP 612 Geographic Information Systems for Urban Planning (3)
This course provides an introduction to Geographic Information System (GIS) and its application in urban planning. The lecture component of the course will help students understand GIS fundamentals, and show them examples of application. The laboratory component of the course will offer students opportunities to learn GIS software and to develop technical skills for mapping and conducting spatial analysis. In addition to attending lectures and completing lab exercises, students will undertake a class project that applies GIS to some urban planning context. By the end of the semester, students will be expected to have gained working.
URSP 664 Real Estate Development for Planners (3)
The principal purpose of this course is to introduce planning, architecture and public policy students to the real estate development process primarily from the point of view of the private entrepreneurial developer. This course could well be sub-titled; How developers think; We will examine how a private developer gets into the development business, the stages of a development, and the tasks that must be accomplished at each stage, including particularly the financial requirements. We will review the basic financial concepts underlying the development process. We will learn to use financial spread-sheets. We will learn the language of development and developers; in one sense, this is a course teaching the; foreign; language of real estate development. We will plan and negotiate several development projects. We discuss some of the public policies affecting real estate development. Although we concentrate on the development of both market rate and government-assisted multifamily housing, we touch on other varieties of real estate development, including office buildings, single-family tract development, and historic preservation.
ENCE 320 Engineering Project Management (3)
2.5 hours of lecture per week. Prerequisite: permission of department. The principles and techniques of managing engineering and construction projects from the conceptual phase, through design and construction, to completion and close out are presented. Students will develop the analytical skills and awareness necessary on the management side of engineering projects. Topics include project initiation, estimating, budgeting, developing work plans, scheduling, tracking work, design coordination, construction coordination, quality management, managing teams and close out.
ENCE 421 Engineering Contracts (3)
Prerequisites: ENCE320 or equivalent; and permission of department. What constitutes a contract will be presented; the different types and variations of basic contracts such as fixed price, cost reimbursable, time and materials, design-build, design-bid-build, CM at risk; the differences between a GMP, lump sum and cost plus type contracts; the differences between government contracts (key FAR clauses), and industry models such as AIA, AGC, DBIA’s etc.; discussion on conflict management strategies, resolving disputes, claim notification, and purchase orders; the types of scopes of work; special conditions; terms and conditions; solicitation planning; procurement documents; source selection; negotiation; letters of intent; non-competitive forms of procurement; contract administration; and the essentials of employment law as it affects individuals, performance appraisals, diversity in the workplace, and interview protocols.
ENCE 422 Project Cost Accounting and Economics (3)
Prerequisites:ENCE201,ENCE320 or equivalent; and permission of department. Effective project managers have complete command of their project costs. Reviews the fundamentals of accounting; examines project cost accounting principles, applications, and impact on profitability; examines the principles of activity based costing; covers the elements involved in cash management; introduces the framework for project performance measurement, net present value, depreciation, taxes, and earned value analysis.
ENCE 423 Project Planning, Scheduling and Control (3)
Prerequisites: ENCE302,ENCE320 or equivalent; and permission of department. Students will learn the basics of project planning and scope development; developing implementation plans; creating work breakdown structures; scheduling fundamentals and the different methods of scheduling; when to schedule, why network schedules and the network diagram; scheduling calculations and the critical path; managing project risk; and the fundamentals of project control including basic control theory and how to control project cost, schedule and resource
I can see the value of the 4 year degree. Some of the best Surveyors I've met had no formal schooling. Some with 4 year degrees were not so good ( many were very good also). My point being I think it depends on the person.Surveying has to become a passion. As we know there are many industries we can make more money. Along with surveying out in the weather, cutting brush, digging for hours, etc isn't for everyone, and aren't those manholes fun.
I went to a 2 year Vocational School (Renton Technical College, Wa. State) and only took the Surveying Courses. The option to get an Associates Degree by taking some Elective Courses was offered. I'm kicking myself for not taking them. My writing and grammar are terrible. We did have Technical writing, and raw math as part of the course.
States moving to a 4 year Degree will hurt our Industry. Most Surveyors didn't think of Surveying before college, but rather "fell" into it. Often it's difficult to go back to school at an older age, once you've picked Surveying as a career. I believe if you can pass the test and do your job the license should be available. It's much harder to do without the formal education, but the option should be there. For myself the 2 year course was sufficient as far as Surveying goes. Thank God for spell check. My state (KS) is requiring certain classes, but not a degree. Typically it would take most about 2 years to take those classes, but they can be done in a few credits at a time, over a longer period of time. Making it much easier to work, Raise a family, ETC. That seems more fair to me.
Anyone in Washington State with employees or young relative I'd recommend Renton Technical College. Martin Paquette is the best instructor I've ever had in any subject. He is Licensed in California and Washington, as well as having a Masters Degree in Land Surveying ( don't see many Master degrees in Surveying). Had to get that plug in. lol
Had to add my 2 cents.
Mark
There are two arguments for a college degree, and I would say these apply to all professions, not just surveying.
1. That it is needed to obtain the knowledge necessary to perform the job or profession.
I would dispute this. I think it self evident that education can be obtained by other methods and in other settings than in the college setting. College is one method by which knowledge can be obtained, I would argue a poor one, but it is a recognized method.
2. That practitioners are not recognized as professionals without a college degree, possibly even an advanced college degree.
This is true on some levels, but I would say the correction needs to be eradicating this paradigm, rather than forcing it on the various professions. I would say it is primarily driven by an interest to limit the profession to a few, to prop up fees, etc. Sort of a union or guild mentality. I can understand that.
I would suggest entrance to the profession, certification, etc. ought to be by stringent exam and references. If you can do the work, and are a responsible honest person, you ought to be able to engage in that profession. Any other limitation, is artificial and detrimental to society.
It would be harmful to me, but I would suggest all professions ought to be deregulated. Certification, public or private, ought to be optional. Then the client can choose to utilize the services of the certified person, or the uncertified person.
> States moving to a 4 year Degree will hurt our Industry.
On the other hand, maybe it will cause more people to refer to it as a "profession" rather than an "industry". 😉
4 year degree...and its still a race...
to the bottom.
Ask yourself..why would I persue a 4-year degree and then make minimum wage?
If I had to get a 4-year degree, I'd persue another career, continue on and get a MBA...make far more than some surveyor.
I kinda agree about the 4-year degree, even though I do not have one. But it's useless if we don't start treating our profession, like a profession, instead of buy a survey, get one FREE!!!!
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Reference
I am the speling police 🙂
4 year degree...and its still a race...
Bingo. In my state a 2 year will suffice to get your license but go into Minnesota and you need a 4 year. I do agree it will make you a well rounded person if you took something away other than debt. For my two year course I paid about 12k, to go to the nearest school with a 4 year survey program is significantly more without any resulting increase in pay.
> > States moving to a 4 year Degree will hurt our Industry.
>
> On the other hand, maybe it will cause more people to refer to it as a "profession" rather than an "industry". 😉
No DOUBT, one of my all time pet peeves. That along with so many surveyors having "customers". Eh? But, after a while of reading such terms over and over I've gotten to the point where I no longer give a rat's patooty. I'm just commenting here, too. Not dissing anyone. And, I'm far enough along now to afford such an attitude. Sad state of affairs. Yep, no doubt.
When I went through UF's program there were very few courses that I didn't feel related in some way to surveying and being a professional and businessman. In addition to about 60 credits of surveying class, we had to take classes like:
Calc I - III & Engineering Stats (Can't understand least squares without Calculus)
Technical Writing (Focus on business communications)
Plant Taxonomy (Identifying plants)
Physics (Important in many aspects of understanding equipment)
Accounting - Business Law - Cost Analysis (Business aspects)
Urban Planning (Interesting class on zoning and regulations, etc.)
Computer Programming (turned me on to programming skills that I still use)
Really, there were maybe 3 required electives, like Humanities or political science, and the like, that didn't really relate to surveying. If that's what's holding
someone back, then college isn't right for them, and they are just making excuses.
Frankly, I think the whole anti-degree requirement stems from the belief that people develop as a teenager that they already know everything they need to know to get by. Thing is, you don't know what you’re missing. Are there any mentors out there that are experts in all the areas of knowledge you'd gain in a 4-year degree, and have the time to pass it on? Not many …
The original post on this subject blasts the other surveyors in his area as being so bad they should lose their licenses, yet he doesn’t want a degree requirement, and believe having these folks passing on their knowledge is a good system? Universities are a wealth of information, and you’ll get from it what you put in it. You might even be surprised to learn that some of the things you “know” are wrong.
When I was at UF, there was this kid there named Al (not his real name). Al’s dad was surveyor, and Al thought the degree requirement was stupid and he didn’t want to be there. He thought his dad signing off for his experience was good enough. Al was dangerously misinformed on a lot of topics. Whenever a basic principle was presented in class (like proration), Al used to argue with the professor and say things like “nobody does that in the real world”. It happened so many times the professor asked him to keep quiet in class and if wanted to discuss something, do it in his office after class … Just saying, sometime the know-it-alls should reconsider how much they really know.
4 year degree...and its still a race...
> Bingo. In my state a 2 year will suffice to get your license but go into Minnesota and you need a 4 year. I do agree it will make you a well rounded person if you took something away other than debt. For my two year course I paid about 12k, to go to the nearest school with a 4 year survey program is significantly more without any resulting increase in pay.
I agree, too.
We all know the rewards of being a professional surveyor, licensed or otherwise, and that one of the attractions was that you could become a professional by having enough years of experience and by passing local and national exams, and without having to get a four year degree.
But making a lot of money has never really been one of those rewards for most of us, unless you can ride a construction boom for a few years. If a four year degree was to become an absolute requirement, it might be a better decision for many to find a profession where that expensive degree lead to a higher income.
It was a little different when I went to college. Community college in CA was practically free, and state college was I think a little over $100 per semester for tuition. I wouldn't want to rack up $50,000 in student loans to stake out lots for $400 each...
What I see as the longterm goal of those promoting the four-year degree is the surveyor sitting in a office running a large firm with dozens or hundreds of survey techs doing all the field work and specialists in record research doing the background work. The licensed surveyor will not be the person "on-the'ground". All of the dirty work will be relegated to much lesser paying positions.
Think about it. How many people with the mental capacity to do all the difficult courses from calculus to geodesy will pass up a comfy office and secure benefits and such to do grunt work day after day? Some, but, not nearly enough to fill all the grunt positions.
There will be far fewer "surveyors" and many, many more "survey grunts".
I have worked at a couple places within New York State and now for the State itself. My degree has helped me get to the place I'm at. That being said some of the best advice and experience that I gained was from surveyors that learn the profession from the ground up.
Could I be in the same place without the degree, maybe? But being able to write programs for my calculator, using least squares, and understanding why it works may have taken a lot longer.
When all was said and done I came out of school with a little over $50,000 in debt (2 year private, 2 years public). Got me a sweet job making $12 an hour, it was the experience not the money I was after. I'm 28 years old and going for my L.S.(NYS needs 8 years) at the end of October. I think it might have been a while longer if I didn't have the degree.
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"(don't judge the writing skills based on a message board post)";-)
The spelling was certainly butchered. Can you imagine the various mispronunciations that produced that mistake.
