education requirements

I agree

whole-heartedly, David. But alas, the world is leaning in the opposite direction.

My education is spotty, at best. I quit HS in 1969. In 1975 I enrolled at the local university. I've accumulated seventy or so hours in surveying or engineering related curriculum. Never got degreed. Couldn't stand English Lit (even though I've been an avid reader of classics). Some of the other classes were less than worthless, also. There was just too much to consume and digest that had nothing whatsoever to do with what I wanted to learn.

Self-education in a specific area of study is not only possible, I think it's, at times, superior to other forms of academea. Nobody will hand out the diploma to you, though.

have you tried to test out of the classes? you still have to pay tuition but if you pass the final exam up front you get the credit but you don't have to attend the class.

Just what I was going to ask Snoop. I have tested out of a few classes along the way and talked my way into getting credit for other classes that were not directly transferable.

I Repeat, ''What You Really Need Is No Longer Available''

Thomas Edison State College in New Jersey had ASAST and BSAST programs in surveying, which allowed you to compile credits from various programs (and other methods) into a single degree. Alas in the past few years they dropped the surveying program. I think such a compiled program is more doable now than ever in the past with the expansion of online learning especially now at ABET institutions.

They did not just give credit for "life experience" as some degree mills do. They would test you on what you learned allowing you to essentially take the final exam. It is called "Testing Out". In fact I tested out of the "Land Developement" surveying course at NJIT based on 15 years of preparing and presenting land development to planning boards. I paid a special final exam fee. With a good number of PEs taking the surveying program they had a plan to accomodate them. I paid a second fee to test out of the "Technical Writing" requirement but the English Department had no test for it and could not come to an agreement with the Surveying Department to come up with one.

Thomas Edison still does the above with other degree programs. Passing the NJ PLS was worth 6 credits at Thomas Edison. I never asked them what credit they would give for passing the PA PLS. I was considering applying there and paying the fee for credit evaluation but alas I did not.

http://www.tesc.edu/academics/Undergrad-Programs.cfm

Paul in PA

> ... but why doesn't self-education count for anything?

Because. Just because.

> Who says that because I don't have that piece of paper that says "Bachelor of Science-Land Surveying" that I am not educated?

Pretty much any and everyone who does the hiring and makes the big decisions.

> I am going through the process to get that paper, but I am beginning to think that it may end up meaning more to other people than it will to me.
It will.

A few comments:

I don't disagree with the high value you put on your self-education. I feel the same, I have spent many long hours, monk-like, rigorously pursuing lines of thought and theories, and looking for foundations to statements, facts and quote-unquote common knowledge.

However, as you can see from my answers to your questions, that doesn't change the way the world works. I continued my self-education (which still continues today somewhat) long after my formal education for my own edification, and to make myself more valuable in the work place. It's just part of my analytical nature to be as accurate and precise as I can. But the world at large still places a high value on a formal education, and that in itself is reason enough for most to obtain one.

Stephen

Self Education vs $elf Intere$t

A very large majority of colleges require a minimum number of credits to be taken at their institution before conferring a degree. It is in the colleges $elf intere$t to do so.

Most major state universities had to be dragged kicking and screaming by the state legislatures to accept community college transfer credits. I note with pleasure that this past month a rather extensive newspaper article announced that Lehigh University and Lafayette College, two local pre$tiguou$ institutions, are developing a transfer program with the Northampton Community College. Many years ago I took 2 business accounting courses at then Northampton County Area Community College, NCACC, taught by moonlighting Lehigh professors which Lehigh would not accept as transfer credits.

My first course at NCACC was a non credit speed reading course taken in a trailer complex more than 40 years ago. Because of a large county population and local industry, it has thrived and now has campuses in counties to the North, 2 in Monroe County and a joint campus for Pike and Wayne Counties.

Just so you understand Albert Einstein still could not get a college degree based om his self study.

Paul in PA

Earning Credit At Thomas Edison College

Various ways to earn college credit.

http://www.tesc.edu/admissions/Ways-to-Earn-Credit.cfm

They have quite a list, and back when they still listed a Surveying program the PLS exam was included.

Thomas Edison College thrives on self learning and is called Thomas Edison for a reason. Thomas Edison the 4th most prolific inventor in the history of the world had only 3 months of formal schooling. That is months not years.

Paul in PA

Not to Hijack...

but is it we, or are more schools dropping the surveying program/course than adding the course.

> have you tried to test out of the classes? you still have to pay tuition but if you pass the final exam up front you get the credit but you don't have to attend the class.

Yes I am going to test out of a few classes, but they only allow you a certain number of credit hours to test out of. Better than none, I guess.

Not to Hijack...

Yep, more schools are dropping it.
I think if we really want to get out of the public mindset that we are not just stake pounders we need some type of formal education. In the SAMSOG manual there is a letter that Curtis brown (i think,can't remember, correct me if i am wrong) wrote to the GA board on this subject back in the 60s. It was eye opening to me (a youngster) that this conversation was going on back then. If doctors and layers need education, so do we.?.?.? I think we do, even though 50% of the bosses I have had, had no formal ed.

As always food for thought. How do you get education with a lot of the surveying programs shutting down?

I Believe The Numbers Of Surveying Programs Are Increasing

I have a list of 72 programs.

Paul in PA

I Believe The Numbers Of Surveying Programs Are Increasing

Good!

Here locally it isn't as optimistic. The surveying programs always float on the edge of having enough students to justify it.

I agree

> Self-education in a specific area of study is not only possible, I think it's, at times, superior to other forms of academea. Nobody will hand out the diploma to you, though.

agreed, but diplomas are simple. I get offers every day, all it takes is a credit card...

Also definitely agree

but I am beginning to think that it may end up meaning more to other people than it will to me.

If you are the type of person who continuing self-educates you will find your statement to be true. Those pieces of paper help the people doing the hiring, it makes their job easier, especially if there is an overabundance of surveyors. If there is a shortage, they will look at people without the paper. I believe the goal of the degree is to help in a well rounded education, as often on the job training leads to experience in the same area over and over. With a degree you will have been exposed to most all areas of land surveying as well as other subjects.

If you find yourself already knowing the subject matter of a class, I would recommend you either test out of the class, ask about tutoring or being more of a lab assistant, or talk to the instructor about learning beyond what is normally taught in the class. You've paid for the instructor's time, maybe he/she would be willing to work with you.

Evelyn

I agree

you can become an ordained minister too!

Also definitely agree

:good:

I have changed my mind on this.

Of course we should require at least some formal education; that's just the way the world works.

You have three surveying numbers on your signature... What the hell do you need a surveying degree for?

It never crossed my mind that I wouldn't graduate from college. I started out in this thing because I thought that I would never be happy with myself if I didn't. The more classes I take, the more I look at classes I have yet to take, I realize I already know most of the material, as I read and study a lot. Now I don't mean to sound cocky or anything but the fact remains that most of these classes are fairly basic material. I keep wondering, like I mentioned earlier, if the degree is going to end up meaning more to other people than it does to me. I say this but I still plan on pursuing graduate studies as well. Maybe then I will feel better about the degree. I just think it's a waste of money to pay for continuing education and not receive anything for it. I can take college classes, cover my con ed requirements and earn a degree at the same time. Why not?