April 2015 National Exam Results

The NCEES must be a very different exam than it was in 1995. I remember it being only marginally more difficult than the LSIT, and quite a bit easier than the CA state-specific.

While I was involved in exam prep and grading, it seemed that BPELS's (no "G" then) goal seemed to be to make the exam a little easier each year. I've heard from some who have been involved in the all multiple guess format, or who had taken and failed under the previous format and then passed under the multiple guess format that now that it is all multiple guess, it is far easier. You wouldn't have seen any, and hopefully still won't see any questions on the state-specific about the workings of some particular regulatory agency.

They might put questions like that in expecting no honest examinee to be able to answer it correctly - using it as a flag question to identify potential cheaters.

Exam subversion has been an increasing problem, so it wouldn't surprise me if NCEES has taken to inserting several such questions just for the purpose of flagging cheaters. Someone might honestly or by luck answer one or two such questions correctly, but if someone gets 8 or 10 such questions correct, something is fishy. This is what my mind is like when the skeptical, cynical, paranoid side comes forward.o.O

Hang in there. You have experience under your belt. Your chances for success go up with you honest evaluation of the areas where you need improvement. Since your scores do not show improvement test over test, then it is likely that you are making the same errors in the same test plan areas. Stay calm, relax if possible are try to fairly assess your own abilities as a surveyor. Answer for your self questions that relate to your experiences as a surveyor... are you great at construction and calcs? If so you may be wasting your time to study in areas where you have the subject matter down. It is likely that you are trained for the profession at a minimally competent level. Now you need to train yourself in test taking. Perhaps enrolling at a nearby junior college will give you just the push you need. A national test must by its nature be a general exam. therefore I recommend a general approach and consider that the exam prepares are looking for a well round candidates who are equipped with a general educational background that the elders have handed down from the mountain top as to what they think is academically fundamental and essential for a surveyor. Look at a few four year surveying programs to get a feel for what the academics view as required to complete a four year degree program in surveying...

I got my results back last week that I passed the PS and the state specific. Now I have my state board denying me a license to practice. They are refusing to count my experience with my current employer because of failure to get insurance, workers comp, etc.

Anyway, just stick with it and study what you don't know or what you had trouble with during the exam. It was my second go around at the PS and I felt a lot more comfortable this time than I did the first. The day I got my NCEES results back last November notifying me that I had failed, I started studying 2 hours a night from November till April 16th.

I reread and copied Browns Boundary Control and Legal Principles and Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location by pencil front to back. I do have a 4 year BS in Surveying and Mapping but I had forgot a lot of basics since the 3 years I was in school.

Don't bother with the NCEES 50 question practice exam either. Pick up the George Cole sample examination and take it many times until you can finish it in a couple hours.

Good luck.

> I reread and copied Browns Boundary Control and Legal Principles and Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location by pencil front to back.
That's an approach I had not heard of before. I am thunderstruck.

If you look at the PS exam specifications found on the NCEES web site, you can see that in category 1 there will be questions related to federal and state laws, rules, and regulations. So it shouldn't come as a big surprise that you may be tested on laws and regulations that may be indirectly related to the practice of land surveying on a national level.

The FGDC and FEMA standards, also in category 1, are additional examples of regulatory requirements that may be directly or indirectly related to practice of land surveying.

Keep in mind that the target examinee for the PS exam will have a minimum of a BS degree in surveying and four years of experience.

As far as the California state specific exams go, IBC, ASTM, CBC, Public Resource Code, and Subdivision Map Act are several examples of other laws and regulations attributable to other regulator agencies and that are covered in the various engineering, surveying, and geology exams prepared by BPELSG. These are found in the published test plans and which are based on an occupational analysis of the practicing licensees. What's surprising to us at BPELSG is why the pass rate either stays steady or decreases over the last several years even though some still believe the exam must be easier. The facts and data do not support that conclusion.

NCEES does not insert questions unrelated to the practice just for the purposes of catching potential cheaters. The exam specifications do not allow for that and it would not be fair to the examinees. Fact is that over the last several years incidents of exam subversion have drastically decreased due to NCEES's administration policies and not because they load the exams with trick questions.

As well meaning as Evan is with his comments, one cannot use him as an example for how easy or difficult an exam is. Evan is very knowledgable and will most likely pass just about any exam he would take. Which actually makes him a poor judge of the exam since he is about as far removed as one can get from the target examinee with the minimum required education and experience.

My best advice for you Scott would be to evaluate your diagnostic in comparison to the exam specifications and your unique experience to determine your best course of action. If you want assistance doing that, feel free to contact us at BPELSG for help as we would be happy to help you maximize your preparation

Try Buckners "Land Survey Review Manual" "Basic GIS Coordinates", Van Sickle There are a lot of questions you have to wonder why they are on there, but they are on there....try reading about the same subject from different authors....its a preponderance of evidence...keep plugging, you'll get there

Scott? What Exactly Is Your

Experience?

Education?

How long have you been failing to pass?

Maybe a different approach?

Paul in PA

> The NCEES must be a very different exam than it was in 1995. I remember it being only marginally more difficult than the LSIT, and quite a bit easier than the CA state-specific.
>
> While I was involved in exam prep and grading, it seemed that BPELS's (no "G" then) goal seemed to be to make the exam a little easier each year. I've heard from some who have been involved in the all multiple guess format, or who had taken and failed under the previous format and then passed under the multiple guess format that now that it is all multiple guess, it is far easier. You wouldn't have seen any, and hopefully still won't see any questions on the state-specific about the workings of some particular regulatory agency.
>
> They might put questions like that in expecting no honest examinee to be able to answer it correctly - using it as a flag question to identify potential cheaters.
>
> Exam subversion has been an increasing problem, so it wouldn't surprise me if NCEES has taken to inserting several such questions just for the purpose of flagging cheaters. Someone might honestly or by luck answer one or two such questions correctly, but if someone gets 8 or 10 such questions correct, something is fishy. This is what my mind is like when the skeptical, cynical, paranoid side comes forward.o.O

After taking the PS twice now, I would like to think that the LSIT (when i took it back in 2007 for the 5th time), was actually a little more difficult. The PS has almost no math in it. But its such a broad test that going through the 1001 survey questions book is not going to help like it did for the LSIT.

I understand now why there are those questions in the test. I just wish the NCEES could come up with a different way of catching potential cheaters. The cheaters in a way have ruined it for us honest surveyors.

I wouldnt mind seeing the test go all computer like the CA State Exam did a few years ago. And even allow us to bring in some extra reference materials.

Thanks for the input Evan!

Scott

> Hang in there. You have experience under your belt. Your chances for success go up with you honest evaluation of the areas where you need improvement. Since your scores do not show improvement test over test, then it is likely that you are making the same errors in the same test plan areas. Stay calm, relax if possible are try to fairly assess your own abilities as a surveyor. Answer for your self questions that relate to your experiences as a surveyor... are you great at construction and calcs? If so you may be wasting your time to study in areas where you have the subject matter down. It is likely that you are trained for the profession at a minimally competent level. Now you need to train yourself in test taking. Perhaps enrolling at a nearby junior college will give you just the push you need. A national test must by its nature be a general exam. therefore I recommend a general approach and consider that the exam prepares are looking for a well round candidates who are equipped with a general educational background that the elders have handed down from the mountain top as to what they think is academically fundamental and essential for a surveyor. Look at a few four year surveying programs to get a feel for what the academics view as required to complete a four year degree program in surveying...

Thanks!

> I got my results back last week that I passed the PS and the state specific. Now I have my state board denying me a license to practice. They are refusing to count my experience with my current employer because of failure to get insurance, workers comp, etc.
>
> Anyway, just stick with it and study what you don't know or what you had trouble with during the exam. It was my second go around at the PS and I felt a lot more comfortable this time than I did the first. The day I got my NCEES results back last November notifying me that I had failed, I started studying 2 hours a night from November till April 16th.
>
> I reread and copied Browns Boundary Control and Legal Principles and Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location by pencil front to back. I do have a 4 year BS in Surveying and Mapping but I had forgot a lot of basics since the 3 years I was in school.
>
> Don't bother with the NCEES 50 question practice exam either. Pick up the George Cole sample examination and take it many times until you can finish it in a couple hours.
>
> Good luck.

First off Congrats! Hopefully things work out with the state board.

I am assuming the PS Exam is the same for all states?

You really copied Browns book over? Amazing! Did that actually help you? As for your BS degree, did you actually see questions on the exam that were related to your studies back then?

I have Cole's sample exam. I used that before the first time I took the exam. The PS Exam is nothing like that now. I dont think it has been for a few years now.

Thanks for the input!

Scott

> Try Buckners "Land Survey Review Manual" "Basic GIS Coordinates", Van Sickle There are a lot of questions you have to wonder why they are on there, but they are on there....try reading about the same subject from different authors....its a preponderance of evidence...keep plugging, you'll get there

Thanks for the suggestions!

Scott

Scott? What Exactly Is Your

> Experience?
>
> Education?
>
> How long have you been failing to pass?
>
> Maybe a different approach?
>
> Paul in PA

I have 11 years experience in Residential/Commercial Architectural/ALTAs, Boundaries, Topos, Legal Descriptions, Easements and some construction staking. We are a small company that hardly ever do anything over 5 acres. Mainly just homeowners who are rebuilding/remodeling.

This puts me at a disadvantage at test time because I am not exposed to the many other sides of surveying. I am currently looking at different options to experience those other sides.

My education is an Associates of Science Degree in Mapping and Survey Sciences. Also two certificates from the same school. LSIT, and passing of the CA State Exam. Also on the job training while I was in school.

I took the PS Exam twice now. I clearly need a different approach before. Maybe find more reference materials.

Scott

>
> I understand now why there are those questions in the test. I just wish the NCEES could come up with a different way of catching potential cheaters. The cheaters in a way have ruined it for us honest surveyors.
>
> I wouldnt mind seeing the test go all computer like the CA State Exam did a few years ago. And even allow us to bring in some extra reference materials.
>

There are no such questions on the NCEES PS exam to catch cheaters. That does not exist.

The PS exam is transitioning to CBT beginning October 2016 but it will remain closed book similar to what it is now. A supplied reference manual will be available as a searchable PDF with the exam. Hopefully, you will pass the exam before then.

Let Us Talk About A Different Approach

Your experience and education should be more than sufficient.

Per NCEES, pass rates are from the April 2015 PS exam.

Exam First-time takers 78% pass rate.

I would say a large percentage of first time exam takers now have a survey education, 95% to 98%, my estimate.

Repeat takers 45% pass rate.

I would say a good percentage of repeat takers may be holdovers from experience only applications.

Some thought should be given to "Is your brain locking up and making you less efficient or focused?" I had some problems in college with certain exams and brain lock. I got some help with relaxation therapy for stress during exams..

However I was always very good with the multiple choice SAT, FE,PE, FS, PS type exam format. You should know what you know and be able to mellow out.

Another thought, one thing I learned from a surveying professor was that there was no agreement between all the surveying programs on what should be in "The Surveying Body Of Knowledge". In that light your particular college program may have missed one or more key elements in order to meet other educational criteria. You may want to look at your college's curriculum versus other colleges. You may not have had an opportunity to learn something that the NCEES is stressing.

Small college programs all face a particular educational problem, small class size. A larger number of students each with different experiences brings a lot to the classroom that an instructor cannot always make up for. Also one instructor may be all that is on staff. Whereas a diverse instructional staff brings in diverse background in education and experience.

In addition working for a small company within a niche that keeps the owner happy many not offer the variety of experience that may be gained at another company. Even in a large company a person may be stuck in a niche.

I am aware of some states that after an individual fails the exam three times it is necessary that he reapplies after additional education. I agree with that philosophy.

So consider that now or in the future you must think how to fill some hole or holes in your experience or education.

If I may ask which college program? Form time to time I have looked at over 70 programs in the US.

Paul in PA

Let Us Talk About A Different Approach

> Your experience and education should be more than sufficient.
>
> Per NCEES, pass rates are from the April 2015 PS exam.
>
> Exam First-time takers 78% pass rate.
>
> I would say a large percentage of first time exam takers now have a survey education, 95% to 98%, my estimate.
>
> Repeat takers 45% pass rate.
>
> I would say a good percentage of repeat takers may be holdovers from experience only applications.
>
> Some thought should be given to "Is your brain locking up and making you less efficient or focused?" I had some problems in college with certain exams and brain lock. I got some help with relaxation therapy for stress during exams..
>
> However I was always very good with the multiple choice SAT, FE,PE, FS, PS type exam format. You should know what you know and be able to mellow out.
>
> Another thought, one thing I learned from a surveying professor was that there was no agreement between all the surveying programs on what should be in "The Surveying Body Of Knowledge". In that light your particular college program may have missed one or more key elements in order to meet other educational criteria. You may want to look at your college's curriculum versus other colleges. You may not have had an opportunity to learn something that the NCEES is stressing.
>
> Small college programs all face a particular educational problem, small class size. A larger number of students each with different experiences brings a lot to the classroom that an instructor cannot always make up for. Also one instructor may be all that is on staff. Whereas a diverse instructional staff brings in diverse background in education and experience.
>
> In addition working for a small company within a niche that keeps the owner happy many not offer the variety of experience that may be gained at another company. Even in a large company a person may be stuck in a niche.
>
> I am aware of some states that after an individual fails the exam three times it is necessary that he reapplies after additional education. I agree with that philosophy.
>
> So consider that now or in the future you must think how to fill some hole or holes in your experience or education.
>
> If I may ask which college program? Form time to time I have looked at over 70 programs in the US.
>
> Paul in PA

Thanks for the input Paul.

I had one class at Cal State University at Northridge in June 2004.

I graduated from Santiago Canyon College I'm Orange, CA

Its a small junior college.

Let Us Talk Santiago Canyon College

Survey/Mapping Sciences - Land Surveying Degree (11906)
and Certificate of Achievement (21668)

The associate degree and certificate program in Survey/Mapping provides the student a thorough background in land surveying and mapping in addition to an introduction to collection, manipulation, formatting and mapping of geospatial data. The successful graduate of this program will have the technical expertise necessary for an entry level position in the fields of Geographic Information Systems, Land Surveying, and Digital Photogrammetry. The program also assists those students preparing for the State Land Surveyor-In-Training and Land Surveyor’s Exams. The State Board of Registration for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors will grant one year of experience credit for students completing an Associate Degree in Survey/Mapping Sciences.

Requirements for the associate in science degree and certificate of achievement:

Courses Units

Survey/Mapping Sciences 118 Plane Surveying 4
Survey/Mapping Sciences 119 Advanced Plane Surveying 4
Survey/Mapping Sciences 205 Computer Aided Drafting Fundamentals for Surveyors 3
Survey/Mapping Sciences 221 Advanced Problems in Surveying I 3
Survey/Mapping Sciences 222 Advanced Problems in Surveying II 3
Survey/Mapping Sciences 229 Legal Aspects of Land Surveying I 3
Survey/Mapping Sciences 230 Legal Aspects of Land Surveying II 3

TOTAL UNITS 23

A good number of associate degree in surveying credits require 30 credits for graduation. The bold text above acknowledges that SCC considers their program a bit light. Generally the term PREPARES is used instead of ASSISTS.

BELOW IS AN ABET ACCREDITED PROGRAM:

Recommended Academic Plan for AEngT in Surveying Engineering Technology (2SRT) at Penn State Wilkes-Barre

EDSGN 100 Introduction to Engineering Design 3
SUR 111 Plane Surveying 4
SUR 162 Methods in Large-Scale Mapping 3
SUR 212 Route and Construction Surveying 4
SUR 241 Survey Measurement Analysis 3
SUR 222 Photogrammetry 3
SUR 272 Cadastral Surveying 3
SUR 262 Coordinate Systems in Map Projections 2
SUR 313 Integrated Surveying 3
SUR 362 Geospatial Information Engineering 3
SUR 372W Legal Aspects of Land Surveying 3
Total Surveying Credits: 31 plus the 3 engineering design credits.

Paul in PA

Let Us Talk About A Different Approach

@Scott Haggai

I feel your pain. The current FS wasn't a walk in the park either. You study expecting honest straight forward surveying questions like "curvature makes reading higher or lower?" The current NCEES format for this same type question is "which type of wave represents a measure of 10^-4 mts?"
I'm obviously exaggerating but the format as you said is broad and general, definitely makes you feel like you didn't prepare enough.

Let Us Talk Santiago Canyon College

Scott has passed the CA State exam, which is very math intensive. I doubt that he needs more classroom time.

I'd prescribe a a heavy dose of Brown, CA State Court of Appeals rulings, and SurveyorConnect.

Scott,
Good vent and post:good: but rather than question the contents of the exam just use that as the reminder that your studies must be broad based and and extensive.B-)

If you have passed the CA specific exam you definitely are on the right track and pretty close.:stakeout: That is a very well written, thorough exam that IMHO requires one to be a good test taker and well prepared. Im sorry you didn't pass the National this time but hopefully that can motivate you to go all "Good Will Hunting" :tv: on the materials to nail it next time.

The national exam covers a lot of general material as you are well aware of but it has too. As Ric pointed out many National Agency requirements will be covered as well as surveying topics in general. Keep studying and Keep studying and no matter the outcome you will improve yourself in your goal for your PLS.