Amen Larry. Mine was a little different though. He said we don't teach you how to be an engineer, we teach how to LEARN how to be an engineer.
Andy
During the summer between high school and college I worked in a turkey packing plant. I kept watching one guy who seemed to have the world's greatest job. He was the Government inspector who had to be in the building something like six of the eight hours we were working and he only had to be on the line actually doing any serious inspecting for something like two hours of those six. I was making $2.12 an hour and working my tail off. He was making $8 per hour which was substantially more than most university professors at that time. Being young and stupid, I did a little checking to see how difficult it would be to become a Government turkey packing inspector. Also, by being young and stupid, I was easily distracted so promptly forgot about that and wandered off to engineering studies a few weeks later.
For an easy job with what seemed like megabucks at the time, the inspector job had engineering beat hands down.
Four years later I thought I had the world by the tail. Didn't give any thought to being a turkey inspector after that.
PayPal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel:
“A true bubble is when something is overvalued and intensely believed,” he says. “Education may be the only thing people still believe in in the United States. To question education is really dangerous. It is the absolute taboo. It’s like telling the world there’s no Santa Claus.”
The current higher education model is broken and rapacious.
RADU,
Thanks for the reply. But you totally missed the point of my post. I never said that formal education was a problem, rather I said a civil engineering degree does not translate well into the field of surveying. Where you got the idea i was speaking against formal education for surveyors really baffles me.
You might want to go back and read the post.
Joe
Elementary Surveying (3 semester hours) is indeed required for all Civil Engineering majors at LSU. Has been for over 50 years.
Civil Engineers are some of Surveyors biggest clients. Why wouldn't it help to better understand our business from their perspective?
Glad to hear that, Cliff. They eliminated the surveying course at Pitt shortly after I was there (early-mid 80's). I went back in the early 90's and spoke to the chairman of the department, even offered to teach it myself as a part timer. He said they didn't want CE's to think they could go out and survey, and there were "more important" subjects to take its place. Stupid policy, in my opinion. Almost everything in Civil deals with some type of survey data. Like I said before, I agree it should not be to teach a CE how to survey, but rather it should be to teach CE's what surveying is.
Another course I took the same year as surveying (sophomore, I think) was engineering geology. Not to make geologists out of us, but rather so that we would have a basic understanding of geology and how it affects engineering. I see they eliminated that course as well, which I really liked and found useful.
This is one of the threads that I will archive for reference. There are numerous good points made and I'll add the following:
1. I believe that there is a correlation between what we study (in college) and how we earn a living. But, it is a correlation (maybe quite high) and not a strict cause/effect relationhip.
2. Fundamentally the purpose of education is to learn how to learn. What you learn and what you do with what you learn is up to you.
3. The point that many CE programs do not include (enough) surveying is valid. Various institutions are handling it in various ways. A paper providing additional information may be helpful. Much remains yet to be done!
4. Before his untimely death last November, Dave Wahlstrom was the Chair of the ASCE Geomatics Division Education Committee. He was passionate about his profession and education - especially surveying engineering education. Significant momentum was lost with his passing but I am happy to report that the Geomatics Division Education Committee has been infused with additional talent and that the issues are now being discussed by a larger group of professionals and educators. Stay tuned.
Civil Engineering Degree, Survey Class and Survey Camp
I graduated from Lehigh University in 1973, BS CE. at that time Lehigh was one of the few engineering colleges still requiring survey camp for all civil engineers. The need to get computers into the engineering curriculum required finding space somewhere and survey campo was an easy victim. Because survey camp covered the use of survey instruments and highway design and layout, the elementary surveying could cover more material. Today use of instruments is squeezed into one survey class and material is not well covered. I believe that is why some colleges have gone back to somewhat broader survey coverage. And it is not just surveying, Transportation Design is another civil engineering courses that benefits from having a student layout highway curves on the ground.
Survey Camp is however dead. No longer do students leave the confines of campus for 9 hour concentrated class days at some summer camp, but instead do it all on and around the campus. Those three weeks at survey camp in the Poconos along the Delaware River where quite memorable.
"I moved this from a separate post."
Paul in PA
Surveying "Body of Knowledge"
A link to Lucasarticle in POB.
http://www.pobonline.com/articles/95441-traversing-the-law-the-surveying-body-of-knowledge
I know that Josh Geenfeld was working on BOK 15 years ago and could get little agreement.
When one looks across the extremely broad spectrum of surveying programs, one sees that there is still little agreement.
If those that teach surveying cannot agree on what it is, how can surveyors themselves or civil engineering programs agree?
Paul in PA
Surveying "Body of Knowledge"
Unfortunately Paul you are very correct.
Surveying "Body of Knowledge"
Life is what happens while you're making plans.
Get out and lead the way on BOK. Apologize later if needed.
I agree. I have a 4 year civil engineering degree and a 4 year surveying degree. The civil one is good for engineering applications and the surveying one is good for surveying applications. The only way to get both licenses in my state since 1991 is to have both degrees. There's no way a 4 year civil degree trains you to be a surveyor.....just like a surveying degree doesn't teach you to be an engineer. They're different disciplines.
