Any of you in Cali know this fellow?
> Any of you in Cali know this fellow?
>
> http://www.landprints.com/
Not yet. At least I don't think so, but Angels Camp is REALLY close to me. I'll see if I can find out what the deal is.
Don
The domain name registrant and admin contacts are the same:
Fred Arbogast
844 Live Oak Drive
Angels Camp, California 95222-9800
United States
Phone: +1.2098907558
Fax..: +1.2098907558
Email:
Last modified: 2010-07-09 21:23:49 GMT
I note that Mr. Arbogast is not licensed as a land surveyor in CA.
The only Arbogasts listed are a male and female engineer. They have the same address. Nowhere near Angels Camp
> I note that Mr. Arbogast is not licensed as a land surveyor in CA.
The services he is offering does not require him to be licensed Jim. He's just data processing and providing plots. His location of any buildings on a plot require the person he is working for to provide the dimensions to him from property corners, nothing wrong with that.
I read most of it and did not see him offer any type of surveying services that require a license, if you saw something to the contrary, please quote it.
His prices are below low low low ballers lol
> I read most of it and did not see him offer any type of surveying services that require a license, if you saw something to the contrary, please quote it.
I haven't looked at his offerings in detail. I read through them quickly, but saw enough to believe that he's at least getting very close to the practice of land surveying. That's the reason I noted his status without comment, rather than stating that he's in violation of the statute. I'll take a closer look when I get more time.
I concur, he is not breaking any laws, but I think he is getting dangerously close.
From the Home page, emphasis mine:
"You may have been given a drawing of your lot. But does it accurately reflect what is in your deed? LandPrints can tell you!"
From the Policy page, emphasis mine:
"Our purpose is to provide a service that is inexpensive and one that can be used by anyone who is interested in defining and verifying property boundaries and shape."
But, at other places on the site he makes it pretty plain that their service is providing a graphic on the shape, area, and closure precision, etc of the property based on the deed description. I would like it more if he just said shape, area, etc. of the deed description and left out the words property boundary altogether.
His prices are mind-bogglingly low, even for the rather chumpy service he is offering. Fred must really like keying in deed calls.
Stephen
> I concur, he is not breaking any laws, but I think he is getting dangerously close.
>
> From the Home page, emphasis mine:
> "You may have been given a drawing of your lot. But does it accurately reflect what is in your deed? LandPrints can tell you!"
>
>
> From the Policy page, emphasis mine:
> "Our purpose is to provide a service that is inexpensive and one that can be used by anyone who is interested in defining and verifying property boundaries and shape."
>
> But, at other places on the site he makes it pretty plain that their service is providing a graphic on the shape, area, and closure precision, etc of the property based on the deed description. I would like it more if he just said shape, area, etc. of the deed description and left out the words property boundary altogether.
>
> His prices are mind-bogglingly low, even for the rather chumpy service he is offering. Fred must really like keying in deed calls.
>
>
> Stephen
Yep! he must clear a whole 5$/hr.
Upon closer reading, I believe LandPrints crosses the line in a couple of places with regard to the practice of land surveying as defined by §8726 of the CA B&P Code:
1. The offer to provide an "error analysis" of a parcel description or map, and produce a "corrected plot." The statement below is provided on the website as an example:
This falls under §8726(n), "Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured survey data." The addition of the weasel words (e.g. "pretty reasonable guess") doesn't change the situation.
2. The offer to "position your house outline or 'footprint' within the property boundaries." Despite the requirement that the client provide the measurements, LandPrints is clearly offering to relate a fixed object to a property boundary. This falls within the definition of land surveying per §8726(b) [the location], (g) [Determines the information shown or to be shown on any map or document...] and/or (m) [Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data...].
I get what the guy is trying to do -- he just wants to run record calcs, draft them up, and get paid for it -- and he probably wants to stay clear of any inference that he's practicing land surveying. But the net effect of his offerings is to lead people to believe that for a couple of bucks they can obtain services that should be provided by a licensed professional.
It takes someone with the recognized education and experience to properly evaluate property descriptions and maps. When LandPrints clients take action (or fail to take action) in reliance upon its services, they run the risk of incurring substantial damages.
It's possible that LandPrints could clean up the website language to work around §8726, but they'd almost have to include a statement along the lines of "We're not licensed land surveyors, and our services aren't useful for any purpose relating to your property boundaries." But who would buy their services then?
I found this guy on the North Carolina Board's site, they thought he was a little over the line, and sent a cease and desist notice.
> I found this guy on the North Carolina Board's site, they thought he was a little over the line, and sent a cease and desist notice.
Who did you find?
CA Surveyors- Stephen
> Who did you find?
http://www.member-base.net/ncbelsDiscDoc/showimage.aspx?Doc_Id=3512
It's been almost a year since that cease/desist order was sent to him. The language that appears on his website now was probably tamed down quite a bit after he got that letter. He has to do a tad more tuning up though....
Small potatoes IMO
For now I disagree
As I look at this thru the public's eye. I feel he's practicing land surveying.
For now I disagree
If he is going to show your house in relationship to your property line, doesn't he have to determine the property line? That's kind of like surveying. No?
For now I disagree
Very much like surveying.
I thought I knew every one involved in surveying or title in Tuolumne and Calaveras Counties but that name is new to me. I've got the word in to the Calaveras Co. Surveyor (I'm in Tuolumne) but haven't heard back yet.
Don
For now I disagree - JB
> If he is going to show your house in relationship to your property line, doesn't he have to determine the property line? That's kind of like surveying. No?
Well, Yes and No.
Yes, if it's a small potatoes type of guy just wanting to do some plots from existing deeds and owner supplied information on locations to a house from existing property corners.
No if the individual is a Building Designer, Architect, Contractor applying for a building permit etc. etc.
The WORST offenders of violating the Calif LS Act are Architects. They of course will NEVER be disciplined by the BOR for their actions.
This is the great thing about our enforcement system. Ignore the blatant offenders and place the small fry against the wall facing a five man firing squad.
For now I disagree - JB
Small potatoes compared to some other offenders, yes. But if an unsuspecting landowner acts in reliance upon one of these boundary verification plots to his detriment, it may be major to him.
If architects are the worst, and you have have direct evidence of that, then I'm sure that you've filed complaints against some of these wort offenders and forwarded the evidence to the Board, right?
For now I disagree
O.K., so the Calaveras Co. Surveyor has never heard of this guy, which practically means that he doesn't exist. Seriously, it does mean that he's not from around here and is under the radar of the local surveying community. Said County Surveyor will evaluate and determine what he wants to do; probably forward to our State Board. It's kind of embarassing to have this guy in California called out by people in North Carolina.I wonder if your Board contacted California at the time, as a courtesy, and our Board didn't react or didn't see a violation.
Thanks, JB.
Don
For now I disagree - Evan
Sidebar: I hate losing a typed reply on Beerlegs...Grrr
> Small potatoes compared to some other offenders, yes. But if an unsuspecting landowner acts in reliance upon one of these boundary verification plots to his detriment, it may be major to him.
Boundary verification plat...hmm, is that what he is offering, in those words Evan?
> If architects are the worst, and you have have direct evidence of that, then I'm sure that you've filed complaints against some of these wort offenders and forwarded the evidence to the Board, right?
Evan, do you mean to say that you have never come across an architects site plan where the architect or thier intern located a house using fences, curbs and a 12 foot roll tape?
Are you also saying that you have never seen a surveyed sideline setback, that a city requires to be certified before concrete can be poured, to be different from whats shown on a site plan such as the type mentioned above?
Last one I saw was a foot bust...a few months before that it was a 12 foot bust, front yard setback that was architecturally pulled from a curb face. That one cost the owner!
The board is fully aware of what architects do for coming up with a site plan without hiring a surveyor but the AIA of California is just too big of a fish to try and fry.
Each time I come across a setback bust and the client has a fit because the contractor has to shift forms and all that, I tell them to file a complaint... I have yet to hear of one being filed.
I have spoken to a couple of folks that are involved with the board and enforcement and the impression I get is that there is really not much that can be done about it..unless things have changed.
LandPrints - House Placement
Building Placement - We can position your house outline or "footprint" within the property boundaries. If you request this, your house location relative to the property boundaries and orientation or bearing will have to be defined. The first requirement is that you have "metes and bounds" information that defines your boundaries, their lengths and bearings. Secondly, you need to identify two corners of a straight side on your building. Thirdly, from point #1 of one of the defined Courses, measure the distance to house corner #1. Fourth, from Course point #1, measure the distance to house corner #2. Fifth, from Course point #2, measure the distance to house corner #1. Now, you are ready to measure the lengths and directions of your house perimeter. You should use the "Rhode Island" Method as described in "The Boundaries" section of this web site. All of the house perimeter data plus the 3 distances described above and shown as "red lines" in the diagram should be sent to LandPrints so we can generate the drawing with integrated house "footprint".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had to go and figure out what the "Rhode Island Method" must mean since he can locate houses with only three swing ties....two from one corner to a common corner of the house and then only one more distance to another property corner from a common house corner. Seems to me that the house could still swing around??
The Rhode Island Method turns out to be using interior angle's instead of bearings/azimuths...
This guy has clearly crossed the line. I can't see how there can be any ambiguity in this...
