Where do we go and when did it begin to fall apart? Our profession hasn't progressed like others. Technological advances have overwhelmed many in the profession (GPS, Lidar, GIS, drones). The number of history, mathematics and legal issue experts of our profession are disappearing because we arent passing it on. Many get frustrated because in large companies or our state governing bodies we are lumped in under engineers and GIS groups. Fact is its not today's new surveyor that let this happen it's the surveyors of yester year (I consider myself an in-betweener and guilty on both accounts), at some point the profession transformed into MOSTLY being a group of lowballers/didnt understand their true worth or maybe just too nice of a guy to charge a fair price or maybe just let clients guilt them into a lower price. It's common for surveyors not to spell well and to be poor businessman is what I've heard for the last 16 years. All of this IMHO has got us to where we are today. One of the oldest professions known to man is considered an industry by most in the public because others before us didn't represent themselves properly and now many want to bash the new technology and how it is degrading our profession. Fact is we need to embrace it and the younger generation or the name surveyor will flat out disappear and be replaced with some other word that I will have to stop to think hard to be able to spell.
One more thing first impressions are important make your crew members brush their teeth and wear a shirt, and maybe we won't be compared to roofers!
Okay, so your thesis is that:
"Our profession hasn't progressed like others."
And the reasons why you propose that land surveying (the licensed profession in Texas) hasn't progressed are:
(1) "Technological advances have overwhelmed many in the profession (GPS, Lidar, GIS, drones)."
I don't believe I've ever heard of Lidar or drones being used to survey real property boundaries, which is what land surveying is in Texas.
(2) "The number of history, mathematics and legal issue experts of our profession are disappearing because we arent passing it on."
It's true that continuing education has largely been a flop as a means of transferring significant professional knowledge, but I'd look to more obvious causes such as the lower quality of younger applicants for registration.
(3) "Many get frustrated because in large companies or our state governing bodies we are lumped in under engineers and GIS groups."
Is that "many land surveyors" who get frustrated because they work as the hand maidens to engineers? Whose fault is that if not theirs for agreeing to work in that capacity?
(4) "Fact is its not today's new surveyor that let this happen it's the surveyors of yester year (I consider myself an in-betweener and guilty on both accounts), at some point the profession transformed into MOSTLY being a group of lowballers/didnt understand their true worth or maybe just too nice of a guy to charge a fair price or maybe just let clients guilt them into a lower price."
I disagree. The younger practitioners are the ones who are obviously responsible for the complaints listed above. They tend to be technologists and not history, mathematics, or legal experts.
(5) "It's common for surveyors not to spell well and to be poor businessman is what I've heard for the last 16 years."
The land surveyors I know well are educated people who spell perfectly well and know how to run a business. It may be time to get out more.
(6) "All of this IMHO has got us to where we are today."
I think you've neglected to identify the real culprit here, which is the so-called free market for services. When price competition becomes the dominant mode of securing services and there is no counter-balancing factor, you don't end up with conditions that sustain a profession. As the profession is organized in the Texas, maintaining strong price competition is one of the central principles. So, it's pretty much inevitable that things will go downhill.
I can understand how you arrived at your perspective as I think there is a lot of truth is some of what you say. But in my opinion I think you're perspective is distorted. And I am still a professional even though there are some evenings I get out of my truck looking like a homeless pirate. But crawling through sawbriars in a suit and tie ain't my thang....;-)
What I see as common among our colleagues is complaining about clients. And all the gripes are true. Developers and builders are cheapskates. Engineers are arrogant (and cheap). Construction supers are crisis-hoes and realtors are delusional, even when all they spend is other people's money.
And from my viewpoint, all that complaining is eerily similar to a bunch of single guys that park themselves on a bar stool and do nothing but drink and play pool....and then complain about the quality of female companionship they wind up with at closing time. Most surveyors put their name and number on the side of their truck...and then let "whatever the cat drug in" call them up for survey work. And then they want to complain because clients off the streets don't pay or they're idiots.
Get rid of those clients and circulate yourself and your firm in a strata that needs your professional services. There is now, and always will be, a need for professional surveying services. And there is as many of those clients out there as hairs on my head. I have a broker client (that is a cattle rancher and a retired attorney) that can somehow put together a land deal out of 17 old deeds in two counties and get it sold. The stack of junk descriptions and QCDs would make most surveyors gurk. He hands it all to me and has two requests: 1. Let me know when you're done. 2. Send me the bill.
Clients like that make a good living for surveyors; when you find one (and they ARE out there), keep 'em. If you're a friendly and intelligent person, after a while you might be lucky enough to have several clients like that...if you work at it.
I also have several utility companies as clients. All these guys put in miles of facilities every month. They NEED to know where the property line is at. And a good amount of time, they NEED additional R/W and someone to prepare all the documentation. Some surveyors might not see it as very glamorous work, but what would say to billing that approaches a million bucks a year out of two or three crews?
From my point of view "it's a poor workman that blames his tools for his mistakes." Blaming low ballers and the public's distorted opinion of us and all the new technology is just an excuse for the simple fact that most surveyors don't hustle their work in the right places. Clients that approach surveyors because they just found out they need a surveyor make poor clients. They view us and our work as an irritating and costly unseen expense. No wonder everybody and their dog try to find a low-baller.
You have to help your client out. Your professional work has to be able to either enhance their work, or provide them with the guidance to avoid expensive mistakes. You have to make sure your client makes more money quicker by depending on you and your professional abilities.
Otherwise, we're all going to be stuck still leaving the bar at 2 AM with the same old buck-toothed and horse-faced coyote dates.....
A land surveyor's objective is the same as it was when the first land was granted, to locate and monument the land that was granted. /Surveying takes a certain commitment that a simple job does not require.
The agencies that are in control and the BORs that regulate surveyors from state to state may be under distress by budget cuts and the fear of consolidating under lesser qualified and non professional leadership.
Nobody is letting any of this happen.
There are more regulators than there are surveyors.
The number of agencies that spend every day of every year on a campaign to change the rules and laws out of favor to surveyors is growing.
The demands of meeting requirements of practice and the expectation of proper pay for our services usually head in different directions. They always want more and expect to pay less. That is a way of life that everyone has to deal.
Surveying is a life's journey into discovery and facts where the trails are continuously being lost and left to the wayside until the day they become important again and we are expected to know where they are when we have never set foot on in our life. Still we persevere and complete the task because we can do what others can not. Only, never fast enough...
Education and resources that is available is more friendly every day. Much of it is in reach of our desktops and retrievable without leaving the office.
The main complaint I hear is from helpers, employees and students that have decided that there are only certain tasks they are willing to do. For some I can admit are able to specialize in those willing tasks and leave the difficult stuff to everyone else. Most don't last over 60 days and others don't show up on the days that make you bleed. Many of the ones that do never return.
This profession has the best equipment ever available. Technology is always too far advanced for some that are not wanting to overburden with the latest greatest when retirement is just around the corner. Technicians have always been running circles full of measure and draw around the surveyor that is making the decisions and filtering the research to put everything from the past in perspective for the future record.
0.02
I was at a wedding last week with a chemist and two engineers (not civil).
We all talked to the chemist about his line. He specializes in water quality testing in CA.
Then we talked to the Computer Engineer about nanotechnology technology and low power consumption stuff he is working on.
Then we spoke with the engineer from JPL who is working on the probe to Jupiter. That was cool.
Then it was my turn. I described myself as a Land Surveyor getting into remote sensing. They ignored the surveyor part and asked about the remote sensing. I described the static and mobile equipment, data sets and extractions to a very eager and interested audience. It pleased me to be in that position.
So with such reactions, would my ego not directed away from surveying? I have been told for my whole career that the profession is doomed. So why stay in it?
Could be the supply and demand. As the supply diminishes the rates could go up. Or the profession will be gutted and divided into engineering, legal and GIS.
Could be the love of it. Having had a few loves in my life, I can truly guarantee there are other fish in the sea.
Anyhow I am not sure where the profession is going but apparently it is swirling towards doom. I will keep a foot in it while hopefully moving towards more remote sensing.
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Technology hurting our profession is something I would like to touch on. It seems that we are the only profession that has this problem. Mechanics are increasingly more expensive these days. Is it because the car has stopped performing the same basic function over the past 15 years? Most people still want their vehicle to go from point "A" to point "B" without really caring about how the mechanic made it happen. The word Survey is a noun, a verb, and adjective by definition. This has always been the case along with some type of minimum standard governing our methods. While Some practices have changed in my short 15 year history surveying expectations of a surveyor have not. Yes Technology Is moving so fast that we are not slowed by equipment break down. That's Usually because the next new thing came out yesterday. I believe that the common person wants a product at the end of the day. A "survey" in its basic definition is just that a (product). Every state that I know of has rules that are in place to insure that those capable of providing said product is held to a minimum standard. Time will only tell I have been around surveying since I was in diapers. I have seen some of the highs and lows that comes with growing up in and around the survey office. I heard of my grandpa calling a guy a Genius Idiot at times. I have seen an uncle hire Five crew members in the hopes that four would show up every day so he could run two crews . Complaints about all of the above mentioned is fine and dandy. Change is inevitable technology is a part of everyone's life that is alive today, and we have to adapt and overcome. I will leave you with a few quotes I have heard all my life from surveyors in Oklahoma. " We ain't building no Swiss watch here now let's go" " -- " flag it up like a Christmas tree"-- And last but not least this was from my grandpa to his son when he knew he had been out last night. Wake up " Set up! Zero up! Throw up if you have too! We have work to do " lets go hahah.
Jeremy B, post: 359593, member: 11321 wrote: And last but not least this was from my grandpa to his son when he knew he had been out last night. Wake up " Set up! Zero up! Throw up if you have too! We have work to do " lets go hahah.
Ho boy!
I'll remember that one!
To the general public, surveyors are those people they see actually doing the field work. Probably less than 10 percent of those, though, are trained surveyors. They are people who will work for $XX per hour and go home at the end of the day and leave the job behind.
To a significant fraction of our clients, we are the voice on the phone or the contact on the other end of e-mails and texts. We deliver the goods. Nice looking goods. Hopefully, properly done goods.
How many kids feverishly study long into the night every night during their high school years to get the perfect grades and resume to send with their application to that revered "Ivy League" university that turns out the most highly recognized surveying graduates who command six-figure salaries upon graduation and receive world-renowned awards?
We are our own worst enemies.
Search the world for state-mandated minimum standards written for any of the other professions. Search the world for "county engineers" to whom the engineers in that county are to bow, regardless of technical expertise (civil, electrical, mechanical, industrial, nuclear, etc.). Search the world for similar local jurisdictional reviewers of other professional's work before it is deemed to be acceptable. Search the world for other professions driving around with the identities painted on their vehicle doors. Then ask yourself again, "Is surveying a profession on par with other recognized professions?"
[USER=11321]@Jeremy B[/USER]
That reminded me of my high school days. Mornings, actually. My dad would stick his head into my bedroom to wake me up and offer some great, encouraging words akin to, "Roll out! Gotta go plow today." It didn't matter if I'd just spent last evening around the house watching TV or if I wandered in at 5:00 a.m., the message was the same. From my perspective it all amounted to, "Get your butt out of bed, grab some breakfast and get your butt on that tractor."
Holy Cow, post: 359602, member: 50 wrote: Search the world for other professions driving around with the identities painted on their vehicle doors. Then ask yourself again, "Is surveying a profession on par with other recognized professions?"
Or, more to the point, consider how few other professions practice under invented, corporate-sounding names instead of the names of the responsible professionals.
For every, Joseph N. Doe & Associates, Land Surveyors, I'll wager there are at least two of the ilk of "Stake-o-matic Surveying", "Mighty Accurate Mapping", "Super Pro Land Services", and "Pinnacle Precision Land Surveying".
Kent McMillan, post: 359583, member: 3 wrote: Okay, so your thesis is that:
"Our profession hasn't progressed like others."
And the reasons why you propose that land surveying (the licensed profession in Texas) hasn't progressed are:
(1) "Technological advances have overwhelmed many in the profession (GPS, Lidar, GIS, drones)."
I don't believe I've ever heard of Lidar or drones being used to survey real property boundaries, which is what land surveying is in Texas.
(2) "The number of history, mathematics and legal issue experts of our profession are disappearing because we arent passing it on."
It's true that continuing education has largely been a flop as a means of transferring significant professional knowledge, but I'd look to more obvious causes such as the lower quality of younger applicants for registration.
(3) "Many get frustrated because in large companies or our state governing bodies we are lumped in under engineers and GIS groups."
Is that "many land surveyors" who get frustrated because they work as the hand maidens to engineers? Whose fault is that if not theirs for agreeing to work in that capacity?
(4) "Fact is its not today's new surveyor that let this happen it's the surveyors of yester year (I consider myself an in-betweener and guilty on both accounts), at some point the profession transformed into MOSTLY being a group of lowballers/didnt understand their true worth or maybe just too nice of a guy to charge a fair price or maybe just let clients guilt them into a lower price."
I disagree. The younger practitioners are the ones who are obviously responsible for the complaints listed above. They tend to be technologists and not history, mathematics, or legal experts.
(5) "It's common for surveyors not to spell well and to be poor businessman is what I've heard for the last 16 years."
The land surveyors I know well are educated people who spell perfectly well and know how to run a business. It may be time to get out more.
(6) "All of this IMHO has got us to where we are today."
I think you've neglected to identify the real culprit here, which is the so-called free market for services. When price competition becomes the dominant mode of securing services and there is no counter-balancing factor, you don't end up with conditions that sustain a profession. As the profession is organized in the Texas, maintaining strong price competition is one of the central principles. So, it's pretty much inevitable that things will go downhill.[/QUOTE
My post wasn't just in reference to Texas but country wide. Although in Texas "surveying" is considered the surveying of real property boundaries by the state. When someone in the public needs a topo performed, curb and gutter stake out, etc. Who do they call? A surveyor (or at least the publics perception of surveyor).
As far as getting out more, I'm sure it wouldn't take long and I could find many poor businessmen that call themselves surveyors in and around Austin. Maybe those that are doing $350 lot surveys would be a good start. As far as the spelling comment. That was more of running joke through out my career, we can't spell well but we sure are good with numbers, kinda joke.In short the profession as a whole has done this to themselves, even the young practitioners, but let me remind you everything they know from how to solve a boundary down to how to ascertain a value for their services was learned from their mentor. So the blame shouldn't just be blamed on the younger generation, but everyone, from the scruffy surveyor who is willing to let a plumber or an HVAC guy charge more for their services down to the Super Surveyor who is always absolutely correct in everything he does and everyone is a idiot for questioning anything he has done.
TXSurveyor, post: 359608, member: 6719 wrote: My post wasn't just in reference to Texas but country wide. Although in Texas "surveying" is considered the surveying of real property boundaries by the state. When someone in the public needs a topo performed, curb and gutter stake out, etc. Who do they call? A surveyor (or at least the publics perception of surveyor).
As far as getting out more, I'm sure it wouldn't take long and I could find many poor businessmen that call themselves surveyors in and around Austin. Maybe those that are doing $350 lot surveys would be a good start.
In short the profession as a whole has done this to themselves, even the young practitioners, but let me remind you everything they know from how to solve a boundary down to how to ascertain a value for their services was learned from their mentor. So the blame shouldn't just be blamed on the younger generation, but everyone, from the scruffy surveyor who is willing to let a plumber or an HVAC guy charge more for their services down to the "Super" Surveyor who is always absolutely correct in everything he does and everyone is a idiot for questioning anything he has done.
Sorry, no sale. The land surveying profession exists as a profession in the first place because of a societal need. A society that insists upon being able to buy maps of residential properties that purport to be those of a survey of the same and for $350 or less is the force that has created the platoons of registrants willing to sell them that product.
My comment about the lower quality of younger surveyors entering the profession is simply an observation. I'd love to think that intelligent, educated registrants are filling the ranks instead of a bunch of technologists whose attention is apparently elsewhere.
TXSurveyor, post: 359581, member: 6719 wrote: Where do we go and when did it begin to fall apart? Our profession hasn't progressed like others. Technological advances have overwhelmed many in the profession (GPS, Lidar, GIS, drones). The number of history, mathematics and legal issue experts of our profession are disappearing because we arent passing it on. Many get frustrated because in large companies or our state governing bodies we are lumped in under engineers and GIS groups. Fact is its not today's new surveyor that let this happen it's the surveyors of yester year (I consider myself an in-betweener and guilty on both accounts), at some point the profession transformed into MOSTLY being a group of lowballers/didnt understand their true worth or maybe just too nice of a guy to charge a fair price or maybe just let clients guilt them into a lower price. It's common for surveyors not to spell well and to be poor businessman is what I've heard for the last 16 years. All of this IMHO has got us to where we are today. One of the oldest professions known to man is considered an industry by most in the public because others before us didn't represent themselves properly and now many want to bash the new technology and how it is degrading our profession. Fact is we need to embrace it and the younger generation or the name surveyor will flat out disappear and be replaced with some other word that I will have to stop to think hard to be able to spell.
One more thing first impressions are important make your crew members brush their teeth and wear a shirt, and maybe we won't be compared to roofers!
Well, first of all, a profession isn't defined by its tools or technology, so maybe mind sets similar to "Technological advances have overwhelmed many in the profession (GPS, Lidar, GIS, drones), are part of the problem. Are doctors losing their professional image and receiving lower incomes because of the rapid growth in chemistry and technology? HA! Not a chance.
What is our first temptation to do when asked to introduce younger people to our profession, through presentations to schools etc.?? We drag out our really cool tools!!! How many emphasize the side of our profession that requires we be "history, mathematics and legal issue experts"?
Why do we, like in Idaho, when faced with the mythical problem of "not enough new surveyors are being licensed" (but yet we gripe about low income levels - go figure) do we reduce the requirements to become surveyors and enthusiastically propose enticing and grabbing the engineering school washouts to become surveyors? I could go on, and on, and on, but I've got cows to chase today. Maybe we all need to look in the mirror...................................
Is technology the problem? The biggest problem that I see is that many Registered Land Surveyors and their technicians are clueless about the basic principles of boundary resolution. What should set us apart from technicians is not the ability to acquire more data quicker, so we can be cheaper than the other guy. It is the ability to analyse the the data and give a well thought/accurate opinion to the location of the property lines, easements, covenants and restrictions. Sorry folks, digital data sets are now and will be a commodity. We will not be able to compete with Microsoft and Google. We can already download data sets for most major metropolitan areas. We are not far from having data sets of the world that will be accurate from 1 to 2 feet. We cannot limit the public's access to the inexpensive data flow, which is and will be made available by multiple sources. As Jeff Lucas so accurately put it "there is an app for that". We can continue to p_ss into the wind or embrace reality. Our role in construction, as-builts and topographical survey is going to continue to be minimized. I do not disagree that a Surveyor should be able to do this better. The reality is that the market will use the providers who can do it quicker and cheaper. Just saying we can do it better will not significantly change the market.
We need to hang on to property surveying as tightly as we can. This is the one area where we should be unique. This is where we are the Professionals. We need to keep the main thing the main thing. Shame on the Deed Stakers and Fence Surveyor turning our most valuable asset into a commodity. I believe our Profession has lost our way.
TXSurveyor, post: 359581, member: 6719 wrote: Where do we go and when did it begin to fall apart? Our profession hasn't progressed like others. Technological advances have overwhelmed many in the profession (GPS, Lidar, GIS, drones). The number of history, mathematics and legal issue experts of our profession are disappearing because we arent passing it on. Many get frustrated because in large companies or our state governing bodies we are lumped in under engineers and GIS groups. Fact is its not today's new surveyor that let this happen it's the surveyors of yester year (I consider myself an in-betweener and guilty on both accounts), at some point the profession transformed into MOSTLY being a group of lowballers/didnt understand their true worth or maybe just too nice of a guy to charge a fair price or maybe just let clients guilt them into a lower price. It's common for surveyors not to spell well and to be poor businessman is what I've heard for the last 16 years. All of this IMHO has got us to where we are today. One of the oldest professions known to man is considered an industry by most in the public because others before us didn't represent themselves properly and now many want to bash the new technology and how it is degrading our profession. Fact is we need to embrace it and the younger generation or the name surveyor will flat out disappear and be replaced with some other word that I will have to stop to think hard to be able to spell.
One more thing first impressions are important make your crew members brush their teeth and wear a shirt, and maybe we won't be compared to roofers!
I agree. In most States experience is the largest part of the requirement to become licensed, the next most prevailing is an equal mix of education and experience. Therefore, we can't really blame any problems on the young. By design, they can only learn how to be surveyors from the older that they work for. Show me one good young surveyor I'll show you one good old surveyor. Show me several terrible young surveyors I'll show you one terrible old surveyor. The numbers are not on our side.
gschrock, post: 359647, member: 556 wrote: Anecdote (for fun, lighten up!) - One of the first surveyors I worked for wore a tie in the field - he said he never had a green engineer talk back to him, members of the public passing by were quite respectful and sought his advice (and new business) 😉
My guess is that land surveying will muddle along as it always has. If you view yourself as a victim then you will likely remain one. I'm the only person in my family to have gone to or graduated college and the first in the line of my father to break away from logging in 300 years. After high school I decided that I would try as many different vocations as possible and give each a one year trial. I've cooked, graded potatoes, worked as roll tender on a printing press, as an Alaskan Fishing Guide, welder (tig and mig), canvas and leather stitcher, construction and carpentry and more. I have never been fired or laid off and I've never had a job that gave me as much satisfaction as I get from land surveying. I just don't understand what more I could reasonably ask for. Should I feel bitter that I don't get paid more? Would that feeling ever dissipate in a country that awards millions to entertainers? What I do matters and, unlike many people , I am connected to my community.
It is becoming easier and more profitable for a land surveyor to complete boundaries solo. That to me is progress because it generally equates to a better product and greater service to the public.
gschrock, post: 359647, member: 556 wrote: All of the above:
1. Experience (formally documented and diverse)
2. Education (that can be, and is a mechanism to weed out poorly qualified entrants... can't handle the math, pick another path)
3. Mentoring (formal, and another weeding tool)
4. Examinations (another weeding tool)Minimum for many professions and in many parts of the world (some not so far away).
And does it help a profession to offer only one product? Surveyors used to be called upon to a great many things throughout history, and were viewed as the experts in all of those. Every time we say "that ain't surveying" we beg others to take that work away...
Anecdote (for fun, lighten up!) - One of the first surveyors I worked for wore a tie in the field - he said he never had a green engineer talk back to him, members of the public passing by were quite respectful and sought his advice (and new business) 😉
"that ain't surveying" really is the key. The one task certainly can't sustain any profession.
Jeremy B, post: 359593, member: 11321 wrote: Technology hurting our profession is something I would like to touch on. It seems that we are the only profession that has this problem.
There are some former switchboard operators that would like to have a word with you.
