Can someone point out to me where (if) there are restrictions listed on Texas surveyors discussing fees which they charge with each other?
I think it's based on some discussion by some in an association in Arkansas, probably at least partly urban legend. Folks worried about price fixing and anti-trust laws. Probably wouldn't necessarily appear in the Land Practices Act.
Here's a link to Knud Hermansen's take and facts on the "urban legend" of price fixing in Arkansas.
From the text, Knud doesn't feel discussing fees is any problem:
"As a general rule, the lessons learned from the Arkansas ChapterÛªs experience does not mean that surveyors cannot get together to discuss fees, salaries, or prices ÛÓ so long as such discussion is not meant or does not cause prices or fees to become artificially fixed in concert or conspiracy with other practitioners."
Let me tell you that "price fixing scandal" in NW Arkansas is anything but an urban legend! I have met several of those involved, and they reeeaaaalllly don't want to talk about it.
It was a load of garbage perpetrated on the local surveyors by an overzealous, misguided, young prosecutor trying to make a name for himself. He did, but I won't post it here.
Didn't mean to imply it was all urban legend, but it's turned into no one ever talks about billing with anyone because of it. It's kind of spun a life of its own.
Shawn Billings, post: 353075, member: 6521 wrote: Didn't mean to imply it was all urban legend, but it's turned into no one ever talks about billing with anyone because of it. It's kind of spun a life of its own.
I remember when it all came down, and it was a fiasco, to say the least.
Although I believe the folks that pled guilty were not attempting to violate the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, in a manner of speaking (as in compared to the letter of the law) they did just that. From what I read and discussed with a buddy of mine that hailed from Fayetteville, the parties were merely trying to "bolster" their interest in the local business environment and attempt to rid themselves of petty cut-throat and low ball practices. But that in itself gets pretty darn close to price fixing. I can imagine the ripples it caused throughout the industry around there.
Interestingly, about seven or eight years ago, published in our Oklahoma Society of Land Surveyors monthly newsletter was a column penned by our Society President at the time. In his youthful zeal to be a President he expressed his desires to help out our industry and he suggested exactly that, price fixing. He dwelt on the fact that if we all charged basically the same fees, ruthless and harmful cut-throat competition might be eliminated...
Quite a few folks immediately contacted him and explained the reality of the situation and how his innocent attempt to bring harmony to chaos might very well be illegal.
It would have been funny if it wasn't so sad.
Many years ago a person asked my Father what he charged for surveying. Back then almost everybody would give a per foot price. My Father said $0.10 a foot. The man replied "well so and so charges $0.075 a foot". To which my Father replied " well I guess he should know what he's worth". My experience is that it is not so much about what other Surveyors are charging as it is the client willing to pay for the value of having you perform the work. When you find these clients, you should give them the best service possible. Some clients have learned that quality does not cost it pays. They will pay a resource more than they will a vendor. I pay more at the local hardware store than the major home improvement center because they will take the time to invest in the success of my project.
Price fixing is federal so.....
1992...The Central Chapter (Little Rock) had a CPA come to a meeting and show us how to prepare a 'business' spreadsheet so we 'could make a profit'. We thought it was a good idea, but, after the meeting, over beer and pizza, talked about the Razorbacks, etc.
1992...The Northwest Chapter had a CPA come and present a similar lecture. They made the mistake of writing a memo...
See attached.
DDSM:beer::pizza::-X
From what I understand of the Arkansas incident, there was a paper trail that led to their being in violation of the law as the written law was interpreted and applied.
I remember the Oklahoma article and have heard similar statements thru the years from many sources.
"Anyone can be charged with most anything under the scrutiny of a legal predator waiting for you to make a wrong decision."
Personally, I do not believe it wrong to express one's opinion about fees.
I've quoted $1mil for simple jobs before for the simple reason that I would be put in a position to burn so many bridges to get r done.
0.02
edit, Dan yea that is the paper I remember
Thank all of you for your replies.
It really p****s me off that realtors engage in price fixing with every single transaction they participate in and EVERYONE looks the other way!
I lived in Ozark, Arkansas at the time everything went to heck up in the NW Chapter and the local realtors were who sic'ed the law on them. I missed that meeting because i was in Oklahoma that day. The question for here in Texas is a real interesting one since we have to collect sale taxes would we be considered a profession by federal law, because that was part of the issue in Arkansas as they we professionals.
All licensed surveyors are considered professionals because they offer services by virtue of their being educated and trained thru a college and/or on the job training process leading to being licensed thru a testing program by the BOR as set forth by their state government.
The services that are being required to pay sales tax in Texas are the ones that have little or no representation at the state level in way of lobbyist and state officials that actually care.
Government officials sit down and make a list of possible tax resource and they put us on that list.
The sales tax law for surveyors is tricky and not everything we do is taxed.
I believe that there exists a fine line between the duties of every service we provide as to it being taxed or not and that line is still being defined as our profession progresses with new technology and how we operate.
Texas surveyors and every other profession in most every state has some government oversight group in place to regulate their practice.
Many individuals have fallen victim to their own acts and have been sanctioned or worse for all sorts of reasons.
Every time we assign our name to something, we place our career on the line.
I feel like we are professionals but by some of the Federal contracts we are already considered Technical not Professional. I believe there was an article about this in P
Professional Surveyor.
kkw_archer, post: 353046, member: 5453 wrote: Can someone point out to me where (if) there are restrictions listed on Texas surveyors discussing fees which they charge with each other?
The obvious way around price fixing is to discuss the level of effort that various types of surveys require, i.e. the various tasks that must be performed and the expected ranges of man-hours for each under different scenarios. Most surveyors already have some ideas about this in tendering an estimate of costs for a survey.
A surveyor is free to charge whatever rate per hour he or she wishes to for a services, but it would be useful if licensees had a common understanding of the range of time that various tasks typically require. The numerous substandard surveys I see in the course of my practice are primarily the result of an insufficient effort having been made, not that too little was charged for the service - although obviously there is a connection in simple economics.
Kent McMillan, post: 354209, member: 3 wrote: The obvious way around price fixing is to discuss the level of effort that various types of surveys require, i.e. the various tasks that must be performed and the expected ranges of man-hours for each under different scenarios. Most surveyors already have some ideas about this in tendering an estimate of costs for a survey.
A surveyor is free to charge whatever rate per hour he or she wishes to for a services, but it would be useful if licensees had a common understanding of the range of time that various tasks typically require. The numerous substandard surveys I see in the course of my practice are primarily the result of an insufficient effort having been made, not that too little was charged for the service - although obviously there is a connection in simple economics.
And it's worth pointing out that the level of effort that a survey requires is something that is inherent in the rules that the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveying has adopted. So a time-estimation manual is merely a way of facilitating the adoption of various existing rules and standards. If comparing times required for various tasks is a form of price fixing, then the nonsensical result that follows is that so are the rules adopted by the TBPLS. Those rules are, of course authorized and required by the Texas statute under which land surveying is a licensed profession.
Bushwhacker, post: 353780, member: 10727 wrote: I feel like we are professionals but by some of the Federal contracts we are already considered Technical not Professional. I believe there was an article about this in P
Professional Surveyor.
Do you have any data to support this? We currently have a USFS contract that recognizes us as providing Professional Services...
Kent McMillan, post: 354209, member: 3 wrote: The obvious way around price fixing is to discuss the level of effort that various types of surveys require, i.e. the various tasks that must be performed and the expected ranges of man-hours for each under different scenarios. Most surveyors already have some ideas about this in tendering an estimate of costs for a survey.
A surveyor is free to charge whatever rate per hour he or she wishes to for a services, but it would be useful if licensees had a common understanding of the range of time that various tasks typically require. The numerous substandard surveys I see in the course of my practice are primarily the result of an insufficient effort having been made, not that too little was charged for the service - although obviously there is a connection in simple economics.
This would be an interesting idea. In practice, this is how we create estimates. It would make our billing practices somewhat like a mechanic.
dmyhill, post: 354335, member: 1137 wrote: This would be an interesting idea. In practice, this is how we create estimates. It would make our billing practices somewhat like a mechanic.
Yes, although, except in the case of the most routine tasks, the various parts of the survey will be much more more contingent upon different variables, including terrain, technology, state of public records, remaining evidence, et cet. Sort of like the mechanic who took the job on understanding it was a water pump on a late-model Ford truck, but having a Hispano-Suiza actually arrive in his shop.
It would be an enormously useful contribution to get a general consensus of how different scenarios effect the time required for different types of work. Naturally the time estimates will vary wildly by locality and jurisdiction, but it would still be a project worth tackling.
