Here is another story in Virginia concerning alleged trespassing by surveyors. It looks like they may have legal protection, but I would hate to have survey for some of these pipelines where the landowners feel its better to take out their frustrations on the survey crews rather than in court.
I have to stand behind the land owner when projects have not finished the approval stage of their projects.
I can understand company's wanting to be ahead of schedule and have everything ready to hit the ground when the green light is given.
IMVHO, green light approval for project is when it is time to start the process to get permissions.
When crews show up at my land, I go out and see who, what and why they are there and lay down the ground rules of what to expect is going to happen because the bottom line is that they are on my land, my rules.
Without the proper ducks lined up in a row, they don't have much legal reason to enter land that the owner is specifically and personally taking action to keep the survey and or other company people out.
0.02
I tend to agree with Harris. This kind of article can be very damaging to the land surveyor profession, especially if one practices in a state that has a right of Entry law. I know that the professional community in California doesn't take this right for granted (for the most part) and doesn't want it to be taken away. While I can certainly appreciate the land owners position, it is not the land surveyors fault.
I just would like to know if anyone here has been led away from a project site in cuffs. :'(
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It sounds like proper notice wasn't given for the pipeline surveyors, Virginia does not have a right of entry for general surveying. The state association has looked into or tried to lobby for a general right of entry law, but we must have permission before entry.
New Zealand has Right of Entry only for cadastral surveying - engineering work is not covered
Surveyor shot, woman claims she thought man was a thief
An east Montgomery County woman, who thought she was defending her home from a thief, shot and critically injured a Cleveland land surveyor.
While the unidentified victim and a co-worker were working in the right of way at 22127 Morgan Cemetery, the unidentified surveyor was shot in the upper torso without warning, according to a Montgomery County Sheriff's Department detective.
The surveyor was transported via LifeFlight to Memorial Hermann Hospital in Houston. Medical officials said he was in "very critical" condition Wednesday night. The victim's name is being withheld by authorities at this time.
Police arrested Ruby Nell Biano, 57, a resident at the address, in connection with the shooting. She has been charged with aggravated assault and is in the Montgomery County Jail.
"These guys were part of a survey crew that were out here doing surveys for property owners," said Sgt. Bill Bucks, a Sheriff's detective. "No warning was given by the suspect. She fired one time, and then she walked over to the neighbors, and then she called police."
Police said the two surveyors were working around 3 p.m. in front of the gate leading into the property where Biano lives in a small shack.
The two workers were surveying adjacent lots.
Police said Biano pulled a 20-gauge shotgun and shot at the men, striking one of them.
Biano claimed she has had problems with thieves, Bucks said.
"She complained to us that she had had some problems with theft," Bucks said. "However, she has not reported anything with our agency at this point."
Bucks said the surveyor was shot "one time with a shotgun. It appears he took four pellets to the upper torso."
The victim was taken by his co-worker away from the scene and they hurriedly drove toward Cleveland.
The two ran out of gas in front of the residence of a Harris County Sheriff's Department deputy, near the intersection of Texas 105 and Old Highway 105. The off-duty officer called authorities.
Biano called authorities to report she shot a man.
Bucks said when officers arrived at the scene, Biano indicated when she fired the shotgun, she was near a picnic table about 100 yards from the two men.
A .38-caliber revolver also was found on Biano. But it did not appear the handgun had been fired, Bucks said.
Yeah, I remember that story from a number of years ago. I heard that the guy survived the attack and that he was in the right-of-way when shot. I wonder what happened to the lady who shot him.
Hopefully, I never run into a shoot first, ask questions later landowner like that. I wear a blaze orange vest in the field, I would be an easy target.
One time in the 90s we were surveying in the R/W when a lady came out yelling and ranting. She thought the street ended at the E.P.
The day before we talked to her, she was really nice to us.
Weird.
I'll leave it to the forum to guess what might've changed.
Her poor husband just turned around and went and hid in the garage.
The surveyor's right of trespass involves the nebulous state of a property line until an opinion has been made at the conclusion of a survey. That is, the property line determination has not yet been made, thus, the surveyor might be on adjoining land looking for and acquiring evidence of a boundary.
It is not the same for the utility company. They are not surveying land and they are not determining boundaries. They are exploring a route of a private utility and that, in most jurisdictions, would not be considered land surveying at all.
Ask yourself if the work they are doing qualifies as survey experience for a license to be in private practice in your jurisdiction. If the answer is no then they are not surveying.
They do not have the right of trespass and it is not at all confusing to me.
King Cobra's post about the shooting in Montgomery County, Texas brought back memories. Robert Barnett was the unfortunate young man that was shot back in 2003 by the 57 year-old woman. Those of us participating on the old (and only worthwhile) RPLS.com responded to the event via a somewhat local source, as I recall. Somewhere in my house is a handwritten thank you note from Mr. Barnett for a financial donation I made to help him through the situation.
Elsewhere in the house are a couple of books that I won in an auction to help out Michael Porter in Lawton, OK in attaining the key fund to assure his transplant. Somewhere there are several photos of me with "Heidi", one of the soccer balls that traveled around the world several times.
"Memories light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories of the way we were"
not my real name, post: 332073, member: 8199 wrote: The surveyor's right of trespass involves the nebulous state of a property line until an opinion has been made at the conclusion of a survey. That is, the property line determination has not yet been made, thus, the surveyor might be on adjoining land looking for and acquiring evidence of a boundary.
It is not the same for the utility company. They are not surveying land and they are not determining boundaries. They are exploring a route of a private utility and that, in most jurisdictions, would not be considered land surveying at all.
Ask yourself if the work they are doing qualifies as survey experience for a license to be in private practice in your jurisdiction. If the answer is no then they are not surveying.
They do not have the right of trespass and it is not at all confusing to me.
I think one thing that we need to realize is that the property rights of fee simple ownership (which is what we mostly have in the U.S.) are not not unlimited. While fee simple is the highest ownership interest possible, it is limited by the government powers of taxation, eminent domain, police power and escheat.
So it seems to me if a condemning entity has the right to take your land (at least in theory) for a purpose deemed to be in the public's good, it would follow that they (and whoever they hire for that purpose, like surveyors) would have the right of entry to inspect properties that are candidates for acquisition.
What is not as clear, what is the basis for a surveyor's right of entry when performing boundary surveys? Are the functions of land surveyors an extension of police powers in the regulation of our land tenure system? How about the question of the ownership of boundary monumentation that controls our surveys? Are they owned by the public which would possibly extend rights to surveyors to access them?
Thank you for reading my post. I thought I made clear the purpose of the trespass law with regard to surveying. I also stated that that planning a route for a utility company is not considered land surveying in my jurisdiction.
You may speak with an attorney if you like. Whether or not the pipeline is for the "public good" is your opinion. In my jurisdiction there is not going to be a pipeline "survey" without written permission from the land owner. Towns voted to keep them out because they were trespassing.
There was one other in this thread that stated the trespass law is meant for surveyors. I would stick with that.
No one here is allowing the type of surveying that is described in the article. Soil exploration with construction equipment and cutting a path for that equipment was included in the surveying for the pipeline we had an issue with here but no longer because they are gone.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 332032, member: 6939 wrote: I wonder what happened to the lady who shot him.
The woman did get some time in state jail. But it was not enough for what she did. This incident was highlighted on the tonight show with Jay Leno. Mr. Leno was doing a segment on crazy things aggressive woman have done and brought this senile old battle ax to light. When the cops arrived on the scene not only did she have the shot gun in hand but she had a 45 caliber semi auto and a 357 mag stuck in her pants. That's a lot of fire power to use against a Land Surveyor who didn't even know he was being stalked. I was asked at a job interview years back for a government survey position by one of the panel members if I could give an example of something I thought was unethical in regards to survey procedure that might cause me to tell a superior I wouldn't be able to perform that task. Trespassing was what came to mind quickly. He asked if I could be more specific. I explained that being asked to go on a piece of property clearly marked as private or fenced off in a clear attempt to keep people out might be risky not to mention the ethics involved. He popped back and said if I tell someone to jump a fence to gather data that's what I expect them to do. I was thinking to myself if this guy asked someone to jump off a 300 ft bridge would he expect them to do that as well. Regardless my thought process was centered on the safety of the situation and not so much the legal aspect of it. This very incident with this young surveyor being shot was exactly the reason I had in mind when asked about survey ethics. The information in this forum about trespassing and the ethics and legalities is some great stuff. But I am a firm believer in safety first and respecting the property and privacy rights of others when it comes to the day to day activities of my job as a Land Surveyor. In case anyone is interested I did get the job. Bow tie I think I have gotten a little of topic here and I apologize.
Georgia doesn't have a right of entry law and I spent 20+ years running the surveying department of an engineering company. The first thing I did when given a route (usually a pencil line on a quad sheet) was to pull tax maps and list all property owners in the area. A spread sheet with names, addresses, phone numbers, parcel numbers, etc. was prepared (sometimes with over 100 names). I called (when I could find a number) and/or mailed letters explaining what we were planning to do and asked permission to survey. In all those years I had probably fewer than 10 refuse and only had to condemn right of access only once. HOW you approach an owner can make a world of difference.
Andy
I am just amazed at how many times this particular pipeline project has been in the news.
Down here in pipeline heaven (S. LA/TX) the only landowners who hold out are the educated ones. And they are only holding out for more $$$/rod for the pipeline lease. Most of these land owners already have several lines crossing there productive farm lands and are getting a nice lease check each year.
Holy Cow, post: 332075, member: 50 wrote: King Cobra's post about the shooting in Montgomery County, Texas brought back memories. Robert Barnett was the unfortunate young man that was shot back in 2003 by the 57 year-old woman. Those of us participating on the old (and only worthwhile) RPLS.com responded to the event via a somewhat local source, as I recall. Somewhere in my house is a handwritten thank you note from Mr. Barnett for a financial donation I made to help him through the situation.
Elsewhere in the house are a couple of books that I won in an auction to help out Michael Porter in Lawton, OK in attaining the key fund to assure his transplant. Somewhere there are several photos of me with "Heidi", one of the soccer balls that traveled around the world several times.
"Memories light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories of the way we were"
Yes, those were good days. I too donated to Mr. Porter's fund. I never did get the items I bid on though... And I had the pleasure of taking Heidi to the beach one day for a photo shoot as well.
I hope Mr. Porter is doing well these days. I think the last update from Deral was a good one.
Andy
Joe-Nathan, post: 332179, member: 562 wrote: I am just amazed at how many times this particular pipeline project has been in the news.
Down here in pipeline heaven (S. LA/TX) the only landowners who hold out are the educated ones. And they are only holding out for more $$$/rod for the pipeline lease. Most of these land owners already have several lines crossing there productive farm lands and are getting a nice lease check each year.
In NJ we have the proposed Pilgrim Pipeline project. They have been "mis-leading" property owners as to thier status and any eminent domain issues and access.
see the article
Andy J, post: 332181, member: 44 wrote: Yes, those were good days. I too donated to Mr. Porter's fund. I never did get the items I bid on though... And I had the pleasure of taking Heidi to the beach one day for a photo shoot as well.
I hope Mr. Porter is doing well these days. I think the last update from Deral was a good one.Andy
ahh Heidi "Wilson", right? I have a lot of those photos pop up on my screensaver.
