I'm looking to start a one man survey outfit in my area (BC, Canada). After looking at what a non-licensed surveyor can do I've decided it's best I get my professional license. I have completed the 13 or so professional exams required to article and have articled for 13 months but have about 2 years plus or minus left in the process. To article under a LS I would have to move (I live in a smaller town with no surveyors hiring an articling student) which is difficult logistically with family.
I had the idea of starting a land surveying corporation and partnering with an out of town LS in which he would own 51%. He would do plan checks, oversee field data and guide me as needed. I would take care of everything else including all expenses. After I paid myself and him, the profit would be split 51-49 until I get my commission (under him) at which point I could either buy him out or his shares would be reduced to a more reasonable amount.?ÿ
Any thoughts on this? Am I dreaming that a LS would go for such an arrangement? I our association by-laws and don't see an issue with it. Articling remotely is not unheard of locally, I have a few colleagues that have done so. To me it sounds like a win-win situation.
1.) I don't know
2.) Don't compromise your surveys.
3.) Licensure does not guarantee competency. (Just look at drivers license).
4.) How much family have you got?
5.) This is Canada. What does the Queen think? Or, does she matter?
6.) Surveying is divided into 2 basic piles. Pile one is all the tools, software, and procedures to get the job done. Pile 2 is the legal system, and guiding principles, to direct pile number one above. Which one is your strong suite, and which one needs more guidance?
7.) How old/strong are you, and do really want to ride this train?
Nate
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1.) I don't know
2.) Don't compromise your surveys.
3.) Licensure does not guarantee competency. (Just look at drivers license).
4.) How much family have you got?
5.) This is Canada. What does the Queen think? Or, does she matter?
6.) Surveying is divided into 2 basic piles. Pile one is all the tools, software, and procedures to get the job done. Pile 2 is the legal system, and guiding principles, to direct pile number one above. Which one is your strong suite, and which one needs more guidance?
7.) How old/strong are you, and do really want to ride this train?
Nate
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I have a decent amount of family in the area. It would be undesirable to say the least to uproot for two years. Not out of the question, but if there's another way then I should explore it.
Early 30s and as strong as they come for surveyors. I see office work/being sedentary as being the nail in an early coffin and being able to control how little or how much of that I get is my biggest driver for wanting to go out on my own.
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Young man, cut to the chase and just say you are looking for a licensee to sign your work. No offence but that is not a good path to follow if your goal is to be a reputable surveyor. ?????ÿ
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Young man, cut to the chase and just say you are looking for a licensee to sign your work. No offence but that is not a good path to follow if your goal is to be a reputable surveyor. ?????ÿ
Im looking to work for myself with the guidance I still very much need when it comes to the rules and regulations of the legal side of surveying. Im more then competent on the field and drafting/calcs side of surveying. I have much to learn about the legal side still.
@shea-gleadle I suspect (from your own description of your experience) you have some good skills with basic measurement science. I can say with certainty no person with under a decade of well-rounded education and experience should be making boundary decisions on their own. At 42 years in I still have a second pair of eyes on most of my work, despite being an experienced and credentialed expert witness.
The arrangement you describe will result in suspicious eyes on you at all times (in most markets). I've investigated more than a few of these situations and they all ended poorly for both parties.?ÿ
So, your area of need is pile 2.
As bionic said, it's my weak one too!
Nate
@shea-gleadle I suspect (from your own description of your experience) you have some good skills with basic measurement science. I can say with certainty no person with under a decade of well-rounded education and experience should be making boundary decisions on their own. At 42 years in I still have a second pair of eyes on most of my work, despite being an experienced and credentialed expert witness.
The arrangement you describe will result in suspicious eyes on you at all times (in most markets). I've investigated more than a few of these situations and they all ended poorly for both parties.?ÿ
Couldn't agree more.
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Can I ask what they were doing wrong to avoid any common pitfalls?
@shea-gleadle The licensees generally fail to excercise responsible charge. They end up serving as plan stampers. The remote surveyor has little incentive to share information that complicates the job and results in higher fees from the licensee.
I'm not saying it can't work, only that I've never seen or heard of it working.
I'll probably get pooped on but when I moved to a metropolitan area I briefly worked for a three man outfit called "Research Enterprises" that had no resident PLS or PE.?ÿ I was licensed in another State and was the Party Chief with one yeoman helper and the owner was a pretty good draftsman but his real skills were networking, facilitating the local minor development/construction survey scene and glad-handing.?ÿ Our clients didn't care and our main attraction was rock bottom prices (including my wages). Once a month or so a semi-retired LS would come in, spend an hour or so reviewing our LS work products, stamp them and get paid $500+-.?ÿ He never spoke with me and probably didn't know my name.?ÿ I was not privy to the civil engineering side but guessed my topos etc. were farmed to a PE who was in a similar review/stamp relationship on a piecework basis.?ÿ Lest folks cry out,?ÿ to me our deliverables seemed comparable to legit outfits concerning minimal competency.
Yes, borderline illegal but the firm's shingle didn't say we were offering surveying/engineering services, rather we were a land development consulting service which ostensibly subbed out all LS/PE tasks?ÿ to licensed individuals.?ÿ I only tell this story to offer thinking out of the box where you're *not* offering LS services directly but contract an LS for stamping purposes who'll also vouch for your responsible charge time requirements.
Of course I got out of that outfit ASAP but for 6 months it kept me in baloney sandwiches and a $60 illegal garage "apartment" rental till I got my feet under me.?ÿ My situation was different than yours in that I was already a competent LS (in a different State) and after a paperwork battle was able to sit for the State specific exam through reciprocity.
I think that your idea may be a non-starter because BCLS's that would be willing to participate in the scheme aren't growing on trees these days. Plus, one might suppose that there are no BCLS's practicing in your area because there isn't enough business to support one full time.?ÿ
Might I suggest this - become an unofficial branch office for a BCLS already practicing in a nearby town.?ÿ You get your articling, they get to expand their service area.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
When we first moved to Arkansas, my dad worked under a local surveyor. SA Pintado. RLS 211. Mr Pintado knew how to close a survey with a drafting machine. But, that was about it. My dad brought alot to the table. As I took over my dad's business, I brought alot more into it. The last day dad and I worked together, dad was out finding monuments. I was digging them out, with pick and shovel, and getting a good position with my Javad LS. He had many complaints.
While setting up the base:
"What are we doing way over here? Our survey is 1/2 mile that way".
(I set the base up, and failed to center the base over the base nail, by 0.12', due to dad's distraction)
Then, on the survey, he kept at it. I told him "each shot takes longer, but we don't have to see between them". He finally left. "If I am not needed, I guess I'll just go". Dad liked to be in charge. You may find an older retired LS, to sign your work. But, you may need a couple of other persons to consult with.
This pattern is semi inevitable, sometimes.
Dad did not know what I was doing. But, he would sign any plat of mine, if I asked him to. AFTER briefly looking over 10 days of work, and finding 2 mis-spelled words! I miss him.
Nate
Might I suggest this - become an unofficial branch office for a BCLS already practicing in a nearby town.?ÿ You get your articling, they get to expand their service area.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
So basically open a satellite office? I had considered this as well.
So basically open a satellite office?
Literally opening a satellite office without a resident LS would be illegal in Oregon. Not sure what the law is in B.C. But there is probably nothing that stops you from working remotely and deploying to work sites from home.?ÿ?ÿ
So basically open a satellite office?
Literally opening a satellite office without a resident LS would be illegal in Oregon. Not sure what the law is in B.C. But there is probably nothing that stops you from working remotely and deploying to work sites from home.?ÿ?ÿ
Ok yea, by satellite office I meant a home office.
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Once a month or so a semi-retired LS would come in, spend an hour or so reviewing our LS work products, stamp them and get paid $500+-.?ÿ He never spoke with me and probably didn't know my name.?ÿ I was not privy to the civil engineering side but guessed my topos etc. were farmed to a PE who was in a similar review/stamp relationship on a piecework basis.?ÿ Lest folks cry out,?ÿ to me our deliverables seemed comparable to legit outfits concerning minimal competency.
Yes, borderline illegal bu
Nothing borderline about it most places. The States I work in have followed the NCEES lead and defined responsible charge to make it clear. The review of a product after preparation cannot be called responsible charge. If the person signing the map wasn't involved, they shouldn't be stamping it. The certification doesn't say, "the party chief told me it was all good".
The arrangement you describe was very common not long ago. Nobody is going to reach back and drop a hammer. I for one am glad the profession is moving past that crap.
I don't see anything wrong with it, assuming you can find a willing licensee.?ÿ ?ÿ
A lot of us are decent surveyors, but not so great businessmen.?ÿ ?ÿ If someone like yourself came to me now and offered me that kind of deal, I might take it.?ÿ And I'd be clear that I'd be an actual part of the day to day process, or no deal.?ÿ?ÿ
The problem I see is 2-3 years from now, after you're licensed, if the business is going good, why am I then going to step away, or be willing to be bought out?
Again, this is me, and I haven't been just a rubber stamp.?ÿ So, you can see the potential problem here
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I??m curious what you??ll do if after a few months the majority owner who has no money invested in this business decides he??s unhappy and slows down to a crawl. ?ÿI don??t know if you??ve ever been married but that is what your going to be doing.
A little over 2 years isn??t that long to wait to start your own business the ??right way? and the one that best protects your interests. ?ÿPersonally I wouldn??t consider partnering with someone with your current qualifications.
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Good luck with getting your license.