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It's a pretty simple process to convert that ALTA to an ROS, which only shows that which we are required to show by statute. Basically everything to help the next retracing surveyor, and no indication of why the record of survey was performed or who we were dealing with to produce the ALTA.
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In the two recording States I work in an ROS is required by statute to have a signed and sealed Surveyor's Statement.?ÿ The statement must include the name of the person requesting the survey, i.e., your client.?ÿ And the word "person" is construed in its legal sense so includes corporations, governmental entities, et. al.
"THIS MAP CORRECTLY REPRESENTS A SURVEY MADE BY ME OR UNDER
MY DIRECTION IN CONFORMANCE WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE
PROFESSIONAL LAND SURVEYOR'S ACT AT THE REQUEST OF (Name of
person authorizing survey) IN (Date(s) survey made) , 20 ____."
Fees aren't always high in recording states.?ÿ I'm in one of the most populated counties in Iowa and the recording fee for a plat is $7 + $5 per additional page.
Assuming we're talking about ROS submittals around here (recording State) the filing fees are fairly trivial.?ÿ The big bucks are for the "Record of Survey Review Fee: $523 first sheet + $71 each additional sheet." typically.?ÿ Long ago in some adjacent Counties the fees were much higher but it was a "deposit" which they billed against hourly and returned the excess if it didn't take much review time.?ÿ Those days are gone. ????
Such disparate systems created a dynamic where when submitting to a "deposit" County we'd make sure the ROS was perfect as best we could and hopefully get some money back, but in the flat fee Counties we'd submit less than finished ROSs, especially if ROS first submittal triggered a milestone payment from our developer clients which helped with our cash flow situation.?ÿ Doing so shifted some QA/QC costs to the County beagles, made them feel warm and fuzzy and helped our bottom line.
I know that sounds callous and unprofessional but hey, $500 here and there when it comes to playing the regulatory agency game added up.
Yep. Which is why 99% of the time those ALTAs are requested through a subsidiary, or just as often through a third party. The big-name corporations are never the ones actually requesting the survey.
They're not dumb. At least, their attorneys aren't. And if they don't check Item 1 and we find no discrepancies, no ROS necessary.
And in any case, I have never heard a single story about a corporation whose ambitions were halted simply by someone discovering a record of survey.
Doing so shifted some QA/QC costs to the County beagles, made them feel warm and fuzzy and helped our bottom line.
I know that sounds callous and unprofessional but hey
Oh, I dunno.. I've worked with guys that did the same thing.?ÿ They reasoned the county guys were there for a reason and getting paid, so may as well put them to work.
A surveyor must not be an advocate for their client over the rights of others. If there is grey, we shine light on it, if it stays grey we cannot take a side.?ÿ
Once we put the thumb on the scale, that is a point of no return. I am not saying that you have, but I am being clear that I will never knowingly do so. Do I run next door telling the neighbor they should claim adverse possession? No. I don't advocate for them either.
If we are not impartial judges of the boundary, we are not surveyors. I doubt you disagree with that. I am not sure where you got the idea that I don't weigh bias and emotion when assessing parole evidence. I am saying that if MY emotions regarding the situation influence my decision, then I am not a professional.
There is no such thing as a right to privacy in the United States regarding boundary. That is simply absurd. Boundary is explicitly something shared with another party.?ÿ
I will go further: If you surveyed a parcel and found their occupation encroached on the area described in a neighbor's deed, and you purposely withheld that from the discovery of said neighbor, I would judge that your client has no adverse possession claim. Adverse possession is OPEN. Once you go to hide it, you are clearly NOT open.
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Mandatory recording is a new concept.?ÿ Boundaries have been maintained in the Colonial tradition for millennia and were not consider[ed] secret until mandatory recording came about. The foundation of Common Law, as it relates to real property, is that tangible monumentation of the boundary is superior to all else.?ÿ Recorded plats are nice, but they are not necessary.?ÿ
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Surely you jest.?ÿ Historical rural Colonial boundaries were defended not by artificial monumentation or vague descriptions (to the oak tree, thence to the river) but by force of will (sometimes firearms). The operative approach was exercise dominion over all you claimed and repulse your neighbors as best you could.
Shift forward into the PLSS system in the 1800s in the West where definitive Township/Section Corners (etc.) allowed supposed "tangible monumentation" of holdings but were fraught with GLO missteps (fraudulent GLO surveys, etc.) and although fairly effective still resulted in significant confusion as "tangible monumentation" either never was placed or became lost.?ÿ Again, defending your dominion was the most effective way to own land.
Fast forward to today.?ÿ Now recently surveyed parcels are clearly defined by "artificial monuments" whose provenance is in the County records and if lost have a mathematical rehabilitation process available based on those records.?ÿ Recorded Plats, ROSs, etc., cannot trump an "original monument" but they sure can be useful when that monument is lost.?ÿ Surely recorded "plats" (surveys) are not only necessary but critical to stabilize the Cadastre.
Nowadays most landowners have a tight knowledge of their boundaries thanks to the last 70 years of control by licensed land surveyors, and that's based on public recordation requirements. To say that recordation?ÿ is not necessary is laughable.?ÿ I challenge you to provide evidence that "secret" surveys have any meaning in the 2020s.
We had one fellow who worked this general area for a few decades who simply would not record his plats or file section corner reports because he viewed all of that as being "HIS" private property.?ÿ He assumed he could sell it all for a pile of gold when he retired.?ÿ The small fraction of his work that made it into the records of the numerous courthouses is good work, based on solid rationale.?ÿ If I called him directly and asked for info on a specific job, he would send it and maybe add in some nearby data on which he had also relied.?ÿ I returned the favor.?ÿ Apparently, one other firm did not reciprocate and he cut them off.?ÿ Then they started to go after his license.?ÿ The attempt failed.?ÿ He never changed his ways.?ÿ He has been slope staking on new streets of gold for over ten years now.
Met with a client today to expand an existing tract that was one created by this fellow.?ÿ He is almost certain they ever received a drawing, just a description.?ÿ I knew a surveyor had been involved, despite the absence of any proof in the courthouse, because of the dimensions and bearings.?ÿ No homecooked description would seem so complex.
Surveying is a business.?ÿ A good business man doesn't share information with his competitors.?ÿ Not the way I roll but I've known many who roll that way.
edit: I see holy cow beat me to it 6 hours ago. Lol
I agree that personal feelings or emotions should not influence our opinions.?ÿ I'm not sure what the real difference is between intuition built from experience and strong feelings.?ÿ
In one of the areas that I work, I know a great deal about a long deceased redneck millionaire.?ÿ He was my stepfather's grandfather.?ÿ He owned and horse-traded many thousands of acres of land over the course of his life.?ÿ He also got caught stealing a loaf of bread at the local IGA.?ÿ He was a crook through and through but I could never prove this fact today.?ÿ However, if I survey land that he owned and find an iron that just doesn't fit, I tend to use this non-factual (in the court sense) knowledge to influence my decision.?ÿ It could be overturned in court, but that is a risk I'll take because my personal knowledge will get me closer to the truth than a reliance on only the facts that could past legal muster.?ÿ This is part of being a professional in my opinion.?ÿ?ÿ
@dmyhill:?ÿ"I will go further: If you surveyed a parcel and found their occupation encroached on the area described in a neighbor's deed, and you purposely withheld that from the discovery of said neighbor, I would judge that your client has no adverse possession claim. Adverse possession is OPEN. Once you go to hide it, you are clearly NOT open."
You need to research the Maine Rule regarding AP.?ÿ You are exactly wrong.
I am not arguing that the model system is one where surveys are done and nobody knows about them.?ÿ I've never heard of or worked in a state like that.?ÿ?ÿ
I am saying that the world survived 2000 plus years without mandated recording.?ÿ It's nice but not necessary.?ÿ What changed in the world to make you believe that if a survey isn't recorded it is secretive??ÿ I'm of the opinion that it is a PLSS thing.?ÿ You are so used to having notes and plats and such that it seems unbelievable that you would honor a monument without a centuries old pedigree.?ÿ As a retracing surveyor, I would prefer to find irons that have a written history, but I'm not nearly as concerned about this as you PLSSers seem to be. From my perspective, barring someone from gaining private knowledge of their possession is strange.?ÿ I place less value on the adjoiner, who never loses the right to walk his boundary or hire a surveyor, and more value on the proactive person seeking enlightenment.?ÿ I have no problem with someone who wants to hire me to give them data that they can covet and use as the feel fit.
The fellow I mentioned finally sold his records to a company for some rather small fee with the agreement that they had to hire his son.?ÿ The buyers discovered that sorting through the boxes of files was more work than they could justify.?ÿ They tried.?ÿ They really did.?ÿ But a file that says "Bob Jones" doesn't mean much.?ÿ There was no indexing of any kind.?ÿ They not only gave up, the company sold to a much larger company and they now do no work for individuals (90 percent of the first guys jobs) anywhere.?ÿ The son lost his job, too.?ÿ One good thing he did, somewhat secretly, was to give his hometown title company a copy of all of his drawings.
Those of us who are aware, contact the title company and they help us search for drawings that might be of use for a certain project.?ÿ They took the time to sort them into Section/Township/Range and Subdivsion Name folders.?ÿ They donate this service, so far.
It does seem from comments on this site that authoritative recordation rules and fees in some states cause surveys to increase in cost and time.?ÿ
As far as recording and non-recording states, is there such a thing as non-recording states?
Isn't a deed a recording, are there states where land can be granted without a deed?
Isn't a subdivision plat a recording?
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is there such a thing as non-recording states?
I believe that you can record anything you want; in any state you want. So there isn't a state that you can't record your survey, just states that you don't have to, if you don't want to.
I also believe that a real estate transaction is a personal matter; and it ain't anybody's damn business, if I want sell you any interest I might have in the Brooklyn Bridge. Just send me a check and I will dend you a deed.
I've also got some Ocean front property, in Arizona, if your interested...
I'm interested in the Arizona oceanfront property. I'll accept a quit claim deed if the price is right
There are some small town newspapers that have so little news to report that they print the nuts and bolts of who recorded deeds over the past week.?ÿ No joke.?ÿ There it is in the newspaper:?ÿ Book 592, Page 142:?ÿ Jones, Stephen et ux to Smith, Elsie et vir: Lots 4-6, Block 9, Smutters 2nd Add. to Bullspit City
@dougie I'm in East Tennessee and I could probably record my lunch order in the Miscellaneous Books in most counties if I was willing to pay the recording fee.?ÿ Maps are a different story.
In the majority of Tennessee Counties a subdivision is defined as creating any parcel less than 5 acres or any parcel which requires new public roads or utilities (service connections don't count).?ÿ Hit any of those triggers and you're subject to the whims of the Planning Office with jurisdiction over that area.?ÿ The Planners have beat the Register's up to the point that in most Counties the Register will not record a map of any sort without the blessing of the Planning Dept.?ÿ Some Register's will even refuse deeds if they contain letter or legal size maps as exhibits.?ÿ?ÿIn many cases, the only way we can get a hard fought boundary survey into the record is to convince the owner to have their Title Attorney file a new deed with an updated/corrected description.
I would love to see a change made at the state level to specifically authorize the recording of maps for Boundary Resolution / Record of Survey purposes.?ÿ It would have to penalties for misuse (illegally subdividing) with teeth or the Planners would fight us until the end of time to keep if from passing.
Humans will always be in conflict over there boundaries.?ÿ Within a year of the Mayflower's arrival there was a documented boundary conflict concerning access to a stream.?ÿ Even if we achieve a perfect cadastre there will be conflict.?ÿ?ÿ
I can't point to a secret survey because they only exist in the minds of PLSs living in mandatory recording states.
Have you heard of all the lawsuits in Maine regarding secret surveys and the lack of recorded plats??ÿ No, I suspect you haven't because they don't exist.?ÿ If you need proof that mandatory recording is unnecessary, just look at all the states that seem to be doing quite fine without it.
By implication, you are saying that there is no scenario in which an owner of real property should be allowed to pay a PLS to find out things about their land because there is a potential that this may produce an unpedigreed monument.?ÿ I recognize the potential for that undocumented iron to cause problems, I can also see why someone might want to learn about their property without sharing with others.?ÿ I'm glad we have fifty states that take different approaches as we can watch and see how this plays out.?ÿ
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The Statute of Frauds requires land transaction to be in writing but there is no law that the deed has to be recorded.?ÿ?ÿ
I haven't surveyed in Maine for years (and may never again) but last I knew Family Subdivisions were still legal there so you could have a situation in which land was subdivided and deeded from one family member to another with no public record.?ÿ I suspect that the taxman requires a recorded deed.
There are some small town newspapers?ÿ
The hometown newspaper has stopped that, but I grew up with Dad checking that info every week, and often getting out the advertisers' plat book if he didn't remember exactly where the parties lived.
That's how I learned about Townships and fractions of sections.
He wasn't quite as familiar with every family around as Holy Cow is, but he knew a lot of where they lived and who they had married.
