It seems that when lawyers are involved with a boundary dispute the lawyers advise denying access to neighboring property.
For example, say the client and neighbor dispute their property boundary. Client and neighbor then hire lawyers and aren't allowed to communicate directly. Then client requests a survey. We show up to survey and are confronted by neighbor. Initially the neighbor is cordial, understanding of our process and has no issues with our presence. However, after talking to their lawyer are advised to deny us access to their (neighboring) property.
I am a green surveyor with ~1.5yr of experience, but this situation has happened multiple times.?ÿ From my understanding of the surveying profession, we aren't advocates for anyone (client or neighbor) and the goal is to establish the boundary as accurately as possible. Why lawyers act to delay the surveying process seems obvious, they want to drag out the process long as possible and get more money.
It irks me that lawyers attempt to obfuscate the establishment of property boundary. Why don't surveyors get called first, before lawyers, to mediate this type of boundary issue?
You must be in one of THOSE states where surveyors do not have a right of entry law working for them.?ÿ That is sad.
Before using right-to-entry legislation in your state and using it to enter private property, I suggest that you read that law very closely.?ÿ Some of those laws have some vague or strange exceptions.?ÿ Also, those laws will not protect a law-abiding surveyor from gunshot wounds, dented trucks, or dog bites.?ÿ Our rule at the office was always, "Use right-to-entry only on non-contentious work, and if someone doesn't want you on their land, don't go."
Lawyer probably doesn't want his client to reveal damaging information to you or by allowing your to work be spun by the lawyer on your side that they accepted your work--or any infinite list of negatives they have to guard against.
The noble goal of non-advocacy can get gray when the surveyor for the other side assaults your integrity and tries to prove that you are incompetent, and the lawyer on his side files a motion to have you thrown out out of court for incompetence or error.?ÿ Although you might maintain objectivity and non-advocacy for the survey concepts, you will likely become a huge advocate for yourself and your own work, and you might stay up 24/7 doing it.?ÿ You even have to do that for work that you have done that is in fact positively correct.?ÿ They don't roll over in court like when Ironsides cross examines them on TV.?ÿ They always come out swinging and looking for ways to prove their case no matter what and often go down swinging like that rabbit on "In Search of the Holy Grail."
Think hard before you take on a seriously disputed case and consider referring it if it worries you.?ÿ?ÿ
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I have a very long list of things about lawyers that irks me...
Last one I did like that both sets of attorneys followed me around, watching everything I did. Wasn't that fun.
There are so many Lawyers.?ÿ I've seen crews of them.?ÿ Hell there were 6 in the room and at least 5 or 6 on the phone at a deposition.?ÿ They can appear or just observe too you know.
I think once the Lawyers are involved everything goes through them.?ÿ If I couldn't do the Survey properly because of denial of access by one of the parties then I think I would suspend work until the Lawyers work out a deal so that I can finish my survey.?ÿ No point in flooring the accelerator if you are stuck in the mud.
I did one a few years ago where I knew both sides very well.?ÿ I also knew both lawyers fairly well.?ÿ We all had a great time wandering all over 30 acres coming to an agreement on where to set every corner.?ÿ It worked.
In PLSSia it can be impossible to do certain jobs without being on property not owned by the client.?ÿ Notifying the owner of said property/properties in advance should be sufficient.?ÿ If they protest, we can be escorted to where we need to go by law enforcement.?ÿ Short of killing us, they cannot prevent us from doing our job.?ÿ It has not been a problem in over four decades of experience.
I recently sat down for a "meeting" with an adjoiner attorney. He is a very experienced lawyer and should have understood my client's ownership which I had monumented. The adjoiner disputed my clients claim of ownership and this meeting was to "educate" the lawyer why I did what I did. I went through the statutes, court cases and such that covers my position. Frankly, I'm thinking the lawyer understood it all quite well, he possibly only wanted to find out just how well my client understood it, so now there seems to be no problem, go figure.?ÿ
Surveyors and attorneys have different roles, ours is to protect the public and do a service for our clients, theirs is to advocate for their clients the public can be collateral damage.?ÿ
I've had two instances of calling the sheriff to get access, both were resolved the day before law enforcement showed up, thankfully.?ÿ
Some good points so far. One more point to ponder for the OP.
Calming owners, dogs, homeless folks and the like is a skill. In over 40 years I have never failed to gain access, nor have I been shot, beaten, bit or kicked. A few close calls and a few escorts (the law enforcement kind) at the right time have helped. The thing that really kept me from harm was knowing people.
The ones who are throwing a fit usually fold up like a lawn chair when they are finished. If they are coming at you expressionless without a word head for the truck. Same same for dogs and people.?ÿ
Good luck, Tom?ÿ
We always know the names of the adjoiners before leaving the office.?ÿ Those names are on deeds and tax information usually but mostly I ask my client for that information. I also ask them to contact all the neighbor's and let them know that I will be visiting.?ÿ It seems that I am usually surveying for the new guy in the neighborhood, not the old timer.?ÿ I want to meet the old timer.?ÿ?ÿ
Before I leave the truck my partner and I know who is supposed to be who in the neighborhood. Once confronted if you answer with "are you Mr. Johnson?" you (might) have the upper hand. Introduce yourself by name, give them a card, explain that you have read his deed and have a copy of it in the truck if he wants one. In almost all situations Mr. Johnson calmes and wants to talk about your equipment or tell you about when he worked as a surveyor. Let him, he needs to cooperate and you want him to.?ÿ Ask him how long the fence has been there and who built it??ÿ How about that garden??ÿ
Rarely will I go where I am not expected. We dress well, drive a clean and well marked rig, and have a general interest in all sorts of things. I am not afraid to sit a spell and talk about dogs, chain hoists or fruit trees.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
That all said, most of my work is in an urban setting. Your mileage may vary.?ÿ
Yeah, even in my short career I've always taken the time to chat with clients or the neighbors if approached.?ÿ The boss might not like it since time is money and all that, but I assume it's a lot cheaper to talk to people for 10-15 minutes than try to repair a reputation as a trespasser, land thief, etc.
Agree 100 percent. I like to know who the adjoiners are. As you pointed out, it is great to be able to ask that "Are you Mr. Johnson?" when he approaches. It catches them off guard.
I would hope your boss wouldn't have a problem with you talking to the land owners involved or those in the area. As long as you're trying to get info about the project and not talking baseball for hours on end.
I am the boss. That said, I find that these interactions make for more interesting dinner table conversation than coordinate geometry or the truly unpleasant RN issues in the GI department.
